The And She Looked Up Podcast
Every other week The And She Looked Up Podcast sits down with inspiring Canadian women who create for a living. We talk about their creative journeys and their best business tips, as well as the creative and business mindset issues all creative entrepreneurs struggle with. This podcast is for Canadian artists, makers and creators who want to find a way to make a living doing what they love. Your host, Melissa Hartfiel, left a 20 year career in corporate retail and has been happily self-employed as a working creative since 2010. She's a graphic designer, illustrator, writer, community co-founder and has owned and operated a multi-six figure a year creative content business. She resides just outside of Vancouver, BC.
The And She Looked Up Podcast
EP174: Making a Pivot and Fashioning a Collaboration with Rebecca Rowe: Creative Canadian Women
In this week's regular season episode, classically trained fashion designer Rebecca Rowe joins the show to talk about how she pivoted her business (and how a disaster pushed her to embrace that pivot full force!) from a designer to a stylist who helps other women find confidence in their wardrobe. And then, she took on what, at first glance, appeared to be a surprising collaboration to expand her business even further. Take a listen and it will all make sense!
Rebecca shares her top tips for connecting and collaborating with other businesses and for having a successful business pivot.
This is a great episode for creatives who...
⭐️ are looking to collaborate but don't know where to start - or who to collaborate with
⭐️ need a little help thinking outside of the box when it comes to collaborations
⭐️ would like to pivot their business but are afraid of starting fresh or upsetting existing clients or customers
This episode is brought to you by our Premium Subscriber Community on Patreon and Buzzsprout
MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:
- Rebecca on Instagram
- rebeccarowe.ca
- Rebecca on LinkedIn
- Finding Your Fit with Rebecca & Jenn
- EP 48: How to Make $100 in Your Creative Business Today
You can find Melissa at finelimedesigns.com, finelimeillustrations.com or on Instagram @finelimedesigns.
You can connect with the podcast on:
- Instagram at @andshelookedup
- YouTube
- Tik Tok at @AndSheLookedUp
For a list of all available episodes, please visit:
And She Looked Up Creative Hour Podcast
Each week The And She Looked Up Podcast sits down with inspiring Canadian women who create for a living. We talk about their creative journeys and their best business tips, as well as the creative and business mindset issues all creative entrepreneurs struggle with. This podcast is for Canadian artists, makers and creators who want to find a way to make a living doing what they love.
Your host, Melissa Hartfiel (@finelimedesigns), left a 20 year career in corporate retail and has been happily self-employed as a working creative since 2010. She's a graphic designer, writer and illustrator as well as the co-founder of a multi-six figure a year business in the digital content space. She resides just outside of Vancouver, BC.
This week's episode of the and she Looked Up podcast is brought to you by our premium subscriber community on Patreon and Buzzsprout. Their ongoing financial support of the show ensures I can continue to bring the podcast to you. Want to help out? Head over to patreoncom. Forward slash, and she looked up. That's patreon p-a-t-r-e-o-n dot com. Forward slash, and she looked up. That's Patreon P-A-T-R-E-O-Ncom. Forward slash, and she looked up. There you can join the community for free or you can choose to be a premium supporter for $4.50 a month, and that's in Canadian dollars. Paid supporters get access to a monthly exclusive podcast episode only available to premium subscribers. You can also click the support the show link in the episode notes on your podcast player to support us via Buzzsprout, where you will also get access to each month's exclusive premium supporter episode. I can't tell you how much I appreciate all our monthly supporters. They are the engine that keeps the podcast running and they're a pretty cool bunch too. And now let's get on with the show.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the and she Looked Up podcast. Each week we sit down with inspiring Canadian women who create for a living. We talk about their creative journeys and their best business tips, as well as the creative and business mindset issues all creative entrepreneurs struggle with. I'm your host, melissa Hartfield, and after leaving a 20-year career in corporate retail, I've been happily self-employed for 12 years. I'm a graphic designer, an illustrator and a multi-six-figure-a-year entrepreneur in the digital content space. This podcast is for the artists, the makers and the creatives who want to find a way to make a living doing what they love. Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of the and she Looked Up podcast. As always, I'm your host, melissa, and this week I'm really looking forward to welcoming Rebecca Rowe to the podcast. Hi Rebecca, hi Melissa, great to have you here.
Speaker 1:For those of you who may not be familiar with Rebecca, she is a classically trained fashion designer and a personal stylist and declutter expert who focuses on helping women find their personal style that she believes lives in their existing closets. Isn't that nice to know that our style is already there? By letting go of what no longer serves them, through fashion psychology, she's able to help her clients tackle their blocks and leave with a clean closet and a great relationship with our clothes. And isn't that what we all want? It's make our morning easier when we get up and have to make those decisions.
Speaker 1:So Rebecca is here today we're going to be talking a little bit about her story, but we're also going to be talking about collaboration, because she's had a little bit of an interesting take on that, and I think one of the things that a lot of creatives stumble with when it comes to collaborating with other creatives is not knowing where to start or not realizing that they don't have to collaborate with somebody who does exactly what they do. So we're going to be talking a little bit about that today, but before we get into that, rebecca, the first question I ask everyone who comes on the show is did you feel like you were creative as a kid?
Speaker 2:I did feel creative as a kid, um, but I'm not sure if I felt creative or if I was told I was creative, and this is interesting way of growing up, because I was good at visual arts, painting I always was doing something with my hands, and so I guess you could call that creative um, and I enjoyed it. But I was always told oh you, oh, you're so talented, you're so talented, you're so creative. So I think I took on a bit of that personality from a really young age and started to associate myself with those words and then, as I grew up, I started discovering what creativity means to me, and the term has changed a little bit since when I was a kid.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, so how? What does it mean to you?
Speaker 2:So for me, especially in business, I always think of an entrepreneur as a creative, because we have to think in creative ways Most of the time. I actually most like almost always. The way that we get to our goals is not linear. It's not the same way, and so we're constantly problem solving and creating new answers to very simple questions, and that's what I really consider creative and how I would describe myself as a creative. Now it's like I'm more of a creative problem solver. My brain thinks in a creative way, but I no longer specifically draw or specifically paint. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:It totally makes sense. I totally agree with you. I think entrepreneurship is I think all careers have creative elements to it where creative thinking is an asset. So and I think we're all creative at heart, so I don't really believe that there is a non-creative career. I think we can always add some creativity to whatever it is that we do. But you wound up as a classically trained fashion designer, so obviously you started down that very traditional creative path. What was it that took you that direction? Did it like were you drawing clothes in school or like where was it? How did you tell us your path?
Speaker 2:um, so you're gonna laugh. Okay now I know that we're both on a podcast and I know that people in their cars are not seeing this, but I am six foot one and I've been six foot one since I was about 15, so creating clothes really became a passion, because I didn't have anything available to me right. Um, when I was 15, I was wearing maternity clothes because I needed the length and I wanted that long, uh tank top underneath your baby tee.
Speaker 1:Look, that's how old I am guys, we're just gonna not judge me and um.
Speaker 2:So I started thinking about clothes and I started thinking about why we didn't wear clothes, and I was getting really creative in finding answers to this problem. The problem was I was not fitting into the clothing that my friends were wearing. I wanted to wear those clothes. What can I do? And then I discovered the men's section, and then I discovered the maternity section, like I mentioned, and then I was like there has to be a better way and.
Speaker 2:I started sewing, I started drawing clothing, but really I started sewing and putting together these what I would call puzzles, which ended up being clothing. Um, when you think about clothing, it is actually just a 3d puzzle, and it's something that's uh always been interesting to me is the pattern making, which is uh kind of like the building blocks of any clothing piece interesting okay so that's how I got into it did you?
Speaker 1:did you have like a sewing background, or was it like grade eight, home ec, or I don't know? Do they still do sewing in home ec? I was the last grade to go through where it was only girls who did sewing, but I think they still had Home Ec available. So did you have to teach yourself how to sew, or was that something?
Speaker 2:you just figured out, I was homeschooled, so I didn't go to school until I was in grade 11 and 12. I did a visual arts program in grade 11 and 12. But before then. So when I first started sewing, um, my grandmother taught me how to sew and when she got frustrated she gave me a roll of duct tape and she said figure it out, put it together. And uh, so I was putting things together with duct tape, but I took some sewing classes just at local um fabric stores in in Ottawa and they're the ones who taught me how to sew. And then I went to school, as you mentioned before, classically trained. So I went to school in New York and I went to school in Paris and they really honed in my sewing skills.
Speaker 1:Nice. So, yeah, new York and Paris I think a lot of us think of those as fashion capitals. So that must have been a pretty exciting experience at that age to be in the thick of that world. So after you finished school, you must have had a few different options. You could have gone and worked for a fashion house or for a label or something along those lines. But it sounds like you went your own path, or was there a step in between there?
Speaker 2:I. So I finished, uh, I graduated fashion school, uh, in Paris is where I got my certificate. Um, I'm probably saying that wrong, it's been so long. Um, and I came home to Ottawa government town in capital Canada, and I was like, oh, there's going to be jobs for fashion designers here. No, no, there's not. There wasn't. I'm sure there is now. But so I got home, started working as a server and I said no, no, no, no, no. I did not spend the amount of money I spent on my education to for this. So, within a year of being home and I had a few friends who had known, I went to fashion school and they offered me a spot in what was called Capital Catwalk. Um, it was a charity catwalk and and I was like you know what, let's make a collection. Within six months I made a collection. I showed my first collection and then I started selling my collection and I've been working in the fashion industry since.
Speaker 1:So you started out self employed pretty early.
Speaker 2:Then like I took around that I've never had a real job.
Speaker 1:I don't think you're the only one who listens to this podcast who would say that, so I think we can all relate to that. But so there must have been a little bit of an entrepreneurial streak in you. From the get go, you obviously were like I'm going to do this, I'm going to make it happen for myself. If there's no jobs here, I'll make a job. So it felt safer. Yes, I totally get that, and you're the first person I've had on the show who has said that. But I remember when I quit my job to become self employed, I didn't feel safe in a corporate environment. I felt like I could be let go at any moment, or somebody in a corner office could look at a spreadsheet and say, yeah, she's gone and not even know who I was. And I just thought, if I'm in charge, I get to be in control of my career, and that felt safer to me. But I know it's not like that for everyone. So I totally get that.
Speaker 2:It's the mindset of you can always make more money If you're creative. There's 101 different ways that you can make money and if you need to, I promise you you will go out and find a way to make money, whether it's you sell another piece for me it was selling clothing. Or when I started styling, it was because people were asking me to go through their closets because I had good style. I was like, okay, great, I can, I can charge money for this. Now I have another stream coming towards me. So, because I was in control of like you said, like of everything, and not just a number on a spreadsheet that goes you're expensive.
Speaker 1:Next, exactly, it felt safer yeah, no, I, I totally get that and, like I said, you're the first person who's been on the show who's actually said that. So, yeah, I completely agree with you. You mentioned in your bio on your website that you're a designer with a message, and while you're not actively designing at this point, what was the message that you felt you had to share with the world through your clothes?
Speaker 2:So when I first started my clothing brand and it has kind of the message is still there it's always that your personal style is in your closet and when I was creating clothes it was I had created a new size guide. That was the message really that I wanted to get into is that the clothing themselves can be wrong. Your body is inherently not wrong, so no matter what whatever's in your closet currently either can fit, will fit or it's time to go right. Um, and I really wanted to get that through to people is that, by nature of the fact that we would never say a sunflower is too yellow, your body cannot be wrong, no matter what anyone else is saying.
Speaker 2:So the clothing that is manmade and often very quickly manmade and designed to fit a few million people, they can be wrong. So I wanted people to feel really beautiful and feel really confident, whatever that looked like for them, because beauty changes depending on how you grew up, what you value, etc. Etc. Etc. But I really wanted it to make sure that it was customized to what their values were and fit the body that they were trying to, uh, to live in, awesome that they are living in yes, just I think that's a struggle that so many of us have is just feeling like you wake up and our bodies change as we get older and things happen.
Speaker 1:And just, I literally just had this conversation with a friend the other day about how, as you get older, even though our weight the number on the scale hasn't changed, nothing fits Like just sort of happened overnight. Everything in our closet doesn't fit because the the everything where all the weight sits, has shifted. It's in different spots now and it's so frustrating and you get so you start to feel a little bit down on yourself and it's uh, so to have somebody who comes along and says that no, no, it's not you, it's those in your closet. So you've gone beyond designing at this point, um, and you're doing other things. So let's talk a little bit about that. And one of the first things that you mentioned that you went and did as a new offshoot um, from what you were originally doing is working as a personal stylist. So you mentioned that you had friends who were starting to ask you um, hey, can you help me out? Um, because don't we all wish we had that friend, right?
Speaker 2:Exactly. And then as soon as you find that friend and you find out that they're doing it, you know you start doing it. So I had a couple of friends that were like, oh, can you help me with the styling? Can you help me, like, declutter my closet? I have so many things in my closet and you're so good at putting things together, can you help me? I said sure, no-transcript, throw some gasoline on the styling and see what happens. And next thing you know, I was, I've been booked ever since.
Speaker 2:I changed my website a little bit, took the clothing off, obviously, but I've been booked ever since because I realized that this is a really big problem is that people are overwhelmed going into their closet a lot of the times, and that's the main feeling I think that I've witnessed is that these women are like I have all of these clothes and I've been. I've been told that they look good. I don't know how to wear them. They don't really feel. Feel like me. Should I keep wearing them even though they look good, but I don't like them? So it's really a big conversation and that's where the fashion psychology comes in, because it's not just about wearing something that looks good, it's also about feeling good. Um, and there's so much that comes into that, right? Uh, I mentioned before, like I'm six foot one, I have no problem wearing something that's a little bit more revealing, because men don't come up to me. I worked as a server, as I mentioned, and for years I was hey man, because I'm looking down at them when they talk.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And to all of my friends who were there you know they're smaller than me, hey, baby girl, oh, interesting. And so their relationship with how they chose to present themselves was very different than how I can choose to present myself, present myself, because the way that we grew up, the way that in those formative years we had nicknames, that changed based on who we are as a person, how we presented ourselves, what people instantly thought about. And so that's where I go into those conversations now with these women who are, you know, they're out of the serving industry or they're out of this and they're into a new part of their life, and I say great. So you know, you don't like wearing pink. Why not?
Speaker 2:Pink looks amazing on you. Oh well, my ex-boyfriend liked it on me and I hate him. Okay, cool. Well, let's not wear pink. Then I'm not as colorist. I think that the color seasons are stupid. To be quite honest, I'm not going to lie. If you want me to do your color analysis, I'll be like look at yourself in the mirror. The one that you smile in is the color that you like.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love that, yeah yes you don't need to pay me four hundred dollars. I'm gonna tell you for free on this podcast. You look at yourself in the mirror and you like the, and you're smiling in a color. It's the color that looks good on you, period, and it's going to change because, as you mentioned, as we get older, our yeah.
Speaker 2:But if you still love green and it makes you smile wear the green, and so that's how the business progressed and changed, and I've since been hired to do workshops and talks because I don't see styling as something that should be unattainable. I see it as a skill that people deserve to learn yeah, that's.
Speaker 1:We never really think of it as a skill, do we? But you're right, that's, yeah, it's a skill. So so when you made this pivot because I think also a lot of creatives feel like they get stuck in something that they're known for or that they're they're good at and they do well at, but it's not necessarily lighting the fire anymore and they'd like to pivot, not wildly or anything, but do something a little bit different. And they're not sure how, or there's some fear there that it won't be successful or whatever. So when you, you obviously had interest. You had people, friends and things coming to you. But when you decided to pivot, what did you do from like a business standpoint, to get yourself out there? Or was it completely word of mouth?
Speaker 2:Like were you, did you change up how you marketed, or I drastically changed my marketing and I went hard with almost everything. Imagine you're starting your business from scratch because the clients who have been working with you for a certain type of product or service and if you decide to change, they're going to still ask you for that product your ideal customer and you're going to want to shift your messaging and get very clear with what you do offer, which means and now this is hard for creatives, I know I'm one of them really hard boundaries. Yeah, this is what I do, this is what I don't do. I was, in hindsight, lucky enough to have a flood that completely destroyed my business. Right, there was no oh, can you just make me this? I had no patterns, I had no fabric, I had nothing. I barely had a sewing machine. So the answer was no, I literally can't.
Speaker 2:But when you still have the ability and someone's asking you for it and you're like, oh, but that you know 500 bucks would be really good right now, you have to say no, yeah, and you have to go hard with what you're trying to say, what you're trying to sell, and the main thing that I see with creatives in this space is sell me, sell like, don't allude to it. Oh, I'm starting something new. I'm starting something new. You want it because of this. And here's where you buy it. Yeah, like, make it idiot proof, and that is the easiest way, and it's terrifying. And the first time you post that reel on Instagram or TikTok or whatever and you go no, and then you walk away from your phone and you're like, nope, but you did it. And if you did it once, you can do it again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you kind of hit the nail there where you said, oh, if I do this, it's an extra $500, because how, like? I think that's part of the scary part is there's always this underlying current that it's hard to earn a living as a creative. So if you are earning a living as a creative and you're making money and things are going well, that thought of pivoting to something different but still creative, like what if the money doesn't come in? And I think there's that fear of like what if the money doesn't come in? And and I think there's that fear. So when, when these little opportunities come up from your past passion uh, it's it is so hard to say no like, especially when you're not sure when the next paycheck is going to land in your bank account.
Speaker 2:So, oh, I was going to say, and like this just goes back to the first, very one of the first things we said is like you can always make more money. So if you change into this new business and you're like no hard boundary, this is what I'm doing, I've pivoted. And then people keep asking you or for other things. Go back and say what am I doing? Because if I'm being drawn to these things, am I being drawn to the proposal because of the money. If I need $500, what can I do in my business right now to earn me $500?
Speaker 1:Yeah, actually, and for those of you listening, heather and I did an episode way back, I think in season one or season two, I can't remember on what you could do to earn $100 in your business today and every day, and it's a really interesting exercise to go through, regardless of what it is that you do. But just to think to yourself, what could I do to earn $100 right now, doing what I love to do, and when you sort of think of it from that perspective, making $100 is not that hard. It's not a lot of money today, right, like a hundred dollars. Doesn't even buy your groceries at this point. So, um, you know, what could you do to earn a hundred dollars today? And so that's an interesting thing to think about. If you're thinking out there that you'd like to pivot, so how could you make that first hundred dollars in your pivot? And how do you make the second hundred dollars and just keep pushing along?
Speaker 2:because you save that episode on how to make a hundred dollars and then every time you want to say, sure you know what you go. Nope, let me put my headphones on. Listen to melissa I still.
Speaker 1:I go back and listen to it myself, because every now and then I need that reminder. I pivoted about two years ago and it's like there's days where I just need to go back and hear it. So, yeah, absolutely when you, when you made the decision to pivot, though, like, how did you get the word out beyond the people who you were already working with? Like, did you, were you ramping up your social media? Were you hitting up your email list? Like, what did you do to you ramping up your social media? Were you hitting up your email list? Like, what did you do to kind of get the word out there?
Speaker 2:Yes, so I did, um, I kickstarted my Instagram by posting 30 reels like in 30 days, um, really, with very specific hashtags. So I was telling Instagram I am an Ottawa stylist and I didn't really care about anything else. Like, the point was, who am I trying to target? What am I doing? So? Styling tips, the letting things go how that feels, because you know, every time you go through a closet purge then you think, oh well, what about that top? No, that's buyers remorse, we're gonna let that one go.
Speaker 2:Um, so I just everything I could think of went into instagram and I went, sent out an email to my existing clients telling them the truth hey, my business is on fire, or actually it's underwater underwater. If you are not interested in the type of content that I will be producing from now, here is the unsubscribe button. I'm asking you to respectfully leave because I'm no longer selling clothing. If you were only here for clothing, there's nothing I can really do. Here are some other people that you can go to. So I cleared out my email list, which, I'm not gonna lie, it is a terrifying number. When you see the email numbers go down and you're like it's going to be fine because my open rate is really high, my open rate is really high, my open rate is really high.
Speaker 2:And then I went to other businesses who were complimentary to me. Part of one of my services is I take women shopping and I love taking women to small boutiques where they can find something that is super unique. And so I went around to those businesses and they asked me for my cards. So now I think there's three businesses in Ottawa, in the downtown core we're all locally owned who have my cards. So when women come in and say, oh, I don't know what looks good on me, what should I do? You need Rebecca? Because also they say this is not my job, I am not a therapist, you need to, but they, but now they're selling for me also and and I take clients to their stores because they have amazing pieces. So yeah, it's a very symbiotic, very win, win.
Speaker 1:Yes, and you know we talk about this a lot on the podcast, about how you need to go outside and talk to people.
Speaker 2:Go to networking events and do the things.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So you know, I mean, those kind of relationships don't happen easily on social media. So if you go out and you make the first step and you're walking into a business who is going to benefit from what you can bring to them at the same time as you're benefiting from what they can bring to you, so it's a win-win. And when you can kind of approach it like that and present it like that, people are more willing to listen to what it is that you're trying to say to them.
Speaker 2:So use the relationships you have. So if it's, if there's a local coffee shop and you go there anyway, tell the barista that you talk to every day. Oh, you know, I'm starting this new business. That barista sees what A hundred people a day Easily. Yeah, that's someone who's marketing for you. Oh, that's awesome. Do you want to put your card up on our flyer board? Amazing. It doesn't have to be something that's like specifically in your niche to get your word out there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think that's something we forget and need to be reminded of, because you never know who somebody is connected to, Right, yeah, so it's always worth just mentioning it. If somebody asks you what you do, you know when we talk about the elevator pitch and all that stuff, but it's, it's. We talk about it because it works. It works when somebody asks you what you do. If you're able to actually tell them what it is that you do. You just you never. There's a commercial going around. It's so, so silly. I saw it on TV the other night these two women in an elevator talking about buying a house or something and the woman behind them pops out and she's like my son is a realtor and he's a fitness coach and he sells supplements and she's just handing out all these business cards and I'm like that's, that's what you gotta do so yeah, it's, um it's.
Speaker 1:It can be a little scary sometimes going outside. I know I don't like it, but um, it's honestly how I think some of the best opportunities come to us.
Speaker 2:So, um everyone you gotta go outside and it's scary, so put on a character yes, isn't that what beyonce does? Sasha fierce yeah I put on server becks, which is the person that you know was probably serving you when I was in my early 20s and I go hi, how are you? My name's rebecca. I'll be taking care of you, but I with uh it is.
Speaker 1:I'm a stylist. It's a little uh switch that you need to flick when you walk out the door that you are um. We had another guest on who is a journalist, who is who's uh, one of the quietest, um, more introverted people that I know. But she said my notebook, my journalist notebook that I carry, is my shield. When I have that notebook, I turn into a journalist and that's her. That's the switch for her. So I think we all need to find our switch. Really, what it comes down to is what is that thing that makes it easy for you to walk out the door and do that?
Speaker 2:The easy part is a costume. So if you put on a single pair of heels or a certain blazer and have that be your networking outfit, it can become a trigger for your mind to go oh, ok, yeah, I'm ready to go now that kind of thing can be like yeah, so, speaking of collaboration, that's one of the things we were going to talk about today and you, you've branched out in other ways.
Speaker 1:So you're, you're working as a personal stylist, you're also helping women declutter their closets, which kind of goes hand in hand with being a stylist, but you have also started another collaboration with somebody who is in a completely different niche with you, a nutritionist. So how tell us a little bit, first of all, about what it is that you and Jen, I believe it is are doing and how that came about?
Speaker 2:so I'm collaborating with Jen from Nutrition IQ so her Instagram handle is Nutrition IQ and she is an anti-diet nutritionist. And that's the first thing that I was like all right, I like you. What's going on here? Because, as we mentioned before, clothing is so entwined with your body image that it seems to me to work pretty well together. So I actually worked with Jen, as she was a client of mine and we were going through her closet and we became friends. I really like the way that she approached food and she approached clothing as a tool to help aid your body image, and that's exactly what I do.
Speaker 2:But I don't have a nutritionist background. So she's actually the one who came to me and said hey, I want to do an online course. Would you be interested in collaborating? And here I was being like absolutely not, how am I going to do an online course talking about clothes? This makes no sense. But she was like no, I think it would be good, because then you can explain your theories and thought processes to a bigger audience.
Speaker 2:So I took a second and, sure enough, we developed a course together. So she actually does. The first part of the course is all about nutrition and understanding what your body needs, and then you get into my part of the course, which is where I illustrate how to therefore take care of your body in a different way from the external, but in close on, and it is a very interesting collaboration. We just did a bunch of marketing for it like some content, and the two of us together are just. It's very like we're opposites, like she's small, I'm tall and we have the same idea, and the thing is is like when you're looking for a collaboration, you're looking to meet the same ideal customer.
Speaker 2:So her ideal customer is a woman who doesn't feel comfortable in her own skin, and I would say the same. We're just coming at it from a different perspective. And when we can get to that level of body neutrality, we're not. I'm not saying that you have to love your body Nobody loves their body all the time but if you can get to the point where you can say this is what it is, how, what can we do to move forward and what can I do to feel good right now? This is what it is. How can, what can we do to move forward and what can I do to feel good right now? Which is the same form message that she had, and that's the way that I think any collaboration needs to work. Is that one? You need to be trying to talk to the same person, because that same person probably has more than one problem. Um, and make sure that you guys both have the same overall theory and values.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, I think that's a big one that we don't think about just when you, whether it's a collaboration, a short-term collaboration, so it's a one project, or whether you're bringing on a business partner or you're teaming up with a friend, it's the thing that I think is going to make things as smooth as possible for you is if you are on the same page, like values wise, which and it doesn't really matter what your values are, it just matters that you are in sync with them, because I think all your core arguments are going to come from having different value systems. So it's very much like a marriage in some ways. You know, just if those core values are out of sync, it's really hard to be able to move forward. So, now that you've started this you mentioned it's an online course, so that is something very different for you.
Speaker 1:How did you guys go together? How did you put that together? Was that something Actually? Let's back up. So you've got two different people with two very different careers coming together to work on this project. That at first might sound a little odd, but when you explain it, it makes total sense. Like, of course, why would you not work together? But how did you decide who would do what? Like when she approached you and so you know what were the questions you were thinking in your head, like what is it I'm going to do, or who's going to do all the work? That kind of thing. How did you decide how to distribute the workload?
Speaker 2:So we're lucky enough to live in the same city, so the first thing that we did was we met at a coffee shop and we went through. Okay, what does our client need from us? How can we provide the information that they need to get the best outcome? So what outcome are we looking for With an online course? It's obviously a lot of self-directed work and so we can't guarantee the work because we're not there doing it with them. But if everything goes to plan, how? What are we looking for the outcome to be?
Speaker 2:And so we both decided that we wanted the outcome to be someone who was the next step forward with their body acceptance journey. So, with food, with clothing they wanted. Her idea was I want them to go into a restaurant and not think about the calories. I want them to think about what does my body need, what do I want? What will I enjoy? And for me it was I want the same thing. I want them to go in their closet in this morning, in the in the morning, thinking, great, I'm going to put on this because it's going to feel good on my body. Great, we both have outcomes that we were going for. And then we really worked backwards.
Speaker 2:Um, I went into. I don't want to talk about body shape because I don't think it matters as much as proportion matters. So I was. There was a couple of things that I was like I'm very adamant that this needs to be covered in the course, because it's not covered anywhere else. You can go on Pinterest and find a here's what your body type, here's what fruit you best represent. Yes, exactly. And I'm like I've never seen a woman walk around looking like a pear or an apple or an apple.
Speaker 2:Makes no bloody sense, whereas, like, men get actual shapes and you're here a rectangle, I'm like that makes more sense. Anyway, we're going to talk about that on the podcast um so I wanted to talk about proportion.
Speaker 2:She wanted to talk about grieving the thin ideal great. So then we came up with a series of chapters that we each wanted them to go through and then we individually filmed content. So we each made um slide decks that we then recorded um. I recorded in canva, she recorded in zoom and then we put them together on a platform. Now it did have to be on her platform because she has a um nutritionist only platform, because we are talking about um, some medical oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So if anyone comes with any sort of um allergies or medications or things that they need to have a bit more in-depth conversation with, we wanted to make sure that all of their information was covered and safe to give. So we chose to use her platform. However, there there's a million course platform. So if you are thinking about running a course, use the one that's best suited to you. And then we got together, like I said a couple of days ago, and we came up with a shooting schedule for more content. So it's really been a collaboration where we are taking the workload on 50-50. Both of us popping into the chat to make sure that if anyone has any questions, we can answer them accordingly. Some people have more questions about style, some people have more questions about specific nutrition. Obviously, I can't answer and we just play off of each other.
Speaker 1:Yeah answer and we just play off with each other. Yeah, and I guess, from a marketing perspective, you've both got your own separate audiences um that you can bring to this. But are you doing like coordinated marketing attempts, like, have you, have you set up a separate social media for this or are you just using your own individual accounts to?
Speaker 2:just using our own individual and then we're using the uh invite collaborative collaboration uh function on instagram. So as soon as she accepts the invite, uh, the same reel pops up on her instagram. So if I edit it together, it will pop up on Awesome.
Speaker 1:I think there's a lot of people out there who would love to collaborate. I see this all the time in Facebook groups. We hear it from the people we talk to through the podcast is I want to collaborate, but I don't know how. I don't know how to find somebody to collaborate with. I don't know like what should I be thinking about all of these questions? And sometimes find somebody to collaborate with I don't know like what should I be thinking about All of these questions? And sometimes they want to collaborate with an influencer who can help them get their work out into the world. Sometimes they actually want to develop something new with, like a true business collaboration. So when you were going through this process, like you said, you met Jen. You helped her with her closet, you became friends, friends and you had similar value systems. So was that what? Like told you like this, this is, this is a good person. Like I feel good about this. Um, I think someone, this is someone I can really work with for me with this specific project.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was a lot of. I like the way that she works. I've seen her work, um, and I know that we'll work well together. I'm comfortable doing a collaboration with this. I feel like this will actually yield to results. I've also done collaborations with influencers and I've done collaborations with other companies or other businesses.
Speaker 2:Um, the one thing I will say about working with an influencer is that they are a spotlight. So if you're not ready for a spotlight, if all of your funnels and all of your emails and all of if something that on your end, is not ready for gasoline, then don't throw gasoline on it. Um, it will, because they just shine a spotlight. They say to their audience hey, check out this product, um, and you need to be ready to be like great, here's all of the things. I need you into my orbit Now. You are now my person, yes, so do you have your collection ready to go? That, as soon as this influencer posts you're ready with, hey, and give me your email, let's sign this up. This is obviously something you want from me. Uh, check out my website. It's cleaned up and ready to go like, do you have all of those?
Speaker 2:Um, but if you're working with someone on a project, it's the same as going back to school, right, like, first of all, are you being realistic with how much time it's going to take? Because it's going to take more time than you think, yes, and give yourself a, like, a runway. So we actually this is our second time marketing this course um, the first one we did was a very soft launch. We wanted to work out any kinks, so we offered, you know, a early bird discount and now that we have those kings worked out, we're very confident in saying like this is a good course and everyone who's taken it so far has gotten a lot out of it.
Speaker 2:It's succeeded in both of our um objectives. And so here we go be prepared to run it more than once. Like you said before, this is a marriage. We're in it for the long haul, jen, like, if you're listening. So you know you can't expect all the work to be on somebody else. You really have to be prepared and say great, here are the skills that I can bring to the table and find someone who compliments you in the other way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, did you have any kind of formal agreement in place when you started? Because I know a lot of us when we do these things, we do not, even though we probably should. But was it just pretty much like, yeah, let's do this, and then you just jumped off?
Speaker 2:if I do have a formal agreement. So, um, like if I do a workshop with somebody, then I at least have an email chain, because as long as it's um written down with timestamps, you can use it as a contract.
Speaker 1:Yeah, excuse me. Yeah, so it's one of those things when you're super excited about something, you don't necessarily think about, um, putting it down on paper or anything like that. You just want to get moving, you want to. You're excited about your project. So what have been, um, some of the the pleasant surprises about working with somebody outside of your business and maybe some of the challenges that you weren't expecting to pop up.
Speaker 2:The unexpected challenge that I that popped up was working on someone else's timeline. That's always something Cause I'm sure, like myself and like many other entrepreneurs, we think that we can do 12 things in a day and there's only 10 slots. So, um, working on someone else's timeline definitely was a challenge, and it it means that I have to take a look at myself too, because of how I react. I need to make sure that I'm not getting stressed, or at least not getting visibly stressed. I don't want to stress her out by me getting stressed that we know we don't have enough time, because there's always time. You just got to take it from somewhere else.
Speaker 1:Um, but're in it it doesn't feel like.
Speaker 2:So that was one of the stresses, um and challenges with working with someone else. Honestly, with Jen, there wasn't a lot um, a lot of issues, uh, working together. But I have worked with other people and other um in the past. You know where you don't see things eye to eye and it becomes a conflict management exercise where you're asking yourself you know, what are you willing to give up? And that's the thing is. This goes back to your boundaries conversation what are you willing to give up and what are you not willing to give up? Because it is a collaboration, there will be areas where you need to give up some of that control and as entrepreneurs, like you mentioned, like we work for ourselves, we're not used to giving up control because we don't have to. So when you are working with someone, what is that? What are you going to? What are you not willing to?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're at your. You're very right. In my previous business, I had a business partner. Yeah, you're very right. In my previous business, I had a business partner, and one of the things I had to learn is that he doesn't do things the same way I do, and at first it drove me bonkers, and at the end of the day I just had to sort of step back and say is he getting the work done? Yes, is he doing a good job? Yes, so if he does it differently from you, just back off and let him do what he's doing. And that's hard for a lot of us when we are used to working on our own. We want everybody else to work the way we do, but at the end of the day, he was doing his work and he was doing a really good job of it. So who's the one with the problem? It's me, not him. So, yes, what about the positives, though? Like, what have you gotten out of this? That has been a nice pleasant surprise for you, or maybe not even a surprise, but just great.
Speaker 2:So I got a partner to work with and I work with clients, but to get someone who's you're not working for you're working with is a really nice breath of fresh air like someone who can bounce ideas off of for marketing, someone who can go go through and edit my work because I can ramble. That has been amazing. There's so many benefits to working with someone. I'm very excited and like her contribution and I've learned so much from her. It's just been unreal. I'm extremely happy with how things have turned out.
Speaker 1:It is, it's nice, and one of the things you mentioned that was my favorite thing about having a business partner is just not feeling like you're making every decision on your own, that it 100% rests on your shoulders and just, yeah, that ability to bounce ideas off another person because it can be lonely working on your own, you know. So just being able to and you're stuck in your box. Yes, yes, absolutely. Sometimes you just need to say something out loud and have the other person go. Yeah, that's a good idea, but what if we kind of did this? You know, like you, just the iteration that happens when you are working with somebody often winds up taking you further than you would have got on your own. So I really liked that part about having a business partner or collaborating with someone. I think it just also gets your creative juices going in a way that wouldn't have happened before.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so out of this collaboration. This is not your first collaboration and you may have others down the road. So what are some of the the lessons that you've learned about collaborating? Like if, if, if our listeners are out there thinking like this is something they want to do and I know they do, because we hear about it and are pondering their own collaboration. We hear about it and are pondering their own collaboration. What are some of the things that you would tell them to watch out for and but also embrace, I guess, in the whole process before they take that plunge?
Speaker 2:So what I would look for is someone who has the same values but not the same business. So, for example, I'm a stylist. I wouldn't collaborate with another stylist for direct competitors. It doesn't make sense, right? But find someone who has the same values and the same ideal customer. I would definitely watch out for how much time it's going to take, is going to take you at least two times longer than you think, because because you are working with someone else now, so it's not just oh, I think I'm going to throw this up on Instagram, have the consideration to show it to your partner and say hey, can you look this over? Are you comfortable with this? On my own personal marketing, on my own personal marketing, I am more outspoken and like just casual, um, because I want people to feel like they know me.
Speaker 2:Right is, uh, has isn't like certified dietitian and nutritionist. She speaks with a much more professional type of cadence and language, so I've edited reels for me that meet her voice as well, and we're collaborating that way. So it's going to take longer just because of the back and forth. And another thing that I would probably do going forward is to get that contract, at least an email back and forth that says this is what we agree on. Can you please respond to this email saying yes, if you don't want a formal contract?
Speaker 2:and then do it, because just do it when we spend so much time thinking about doing things and then we want to be perfect and then we wait, and then we don't launch version one, and if you're not a little bit embarrassed about version one when you're on version 15, then you waited too long.
Speaker 1:That's really good advice, actually, because, yes, just a big yes to that. Yeah, yeah, if you don't look back at your early work and cringe, then you're not really growing, are you? And like you never I haven't heard it worded that way. But yeah, you started too late, you waited too long. That's, that's really. That's really good advice On that note going forward. So where can people find you on both on your own website and also on the collaboration that you've done with Jen? Where can they find you online?
Speaker 2:So everything is super simple. It's just my name, rebecca Rowe Rowe, r-o-w-e, dot C-A. It's my Instagram, it's my website and you can find the collaboration with me and Jen right there on my website.
Speaker 1:Awesome, and we will put links to all of this in the show notes for everyone who wants to find you. You also had a generous offer for our listeners. I've lost my spreadsheet. Yes, so for all of you listening, if you head over to Rebecca's website, which is RebeccaRoweca, she is offering up a 25% off discount off of any of the books on her website, which includes a style journal to help you work through your fashion blocks and navigate the human experience. Oh, and you mentioned that's actually written with a teenage audience in mind, so that's kind of interesting too, because teenagers are fraught with what to wear and how we look and all of that. So use the code ASLU at checkout and you'll get your 25% discount on that.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much, rebecca. That was very nice of you to do that for our audience. Yes, and thank you so much for being here today and sharing this with you. I know collaboration is something that is like I said. We talk about it a lot on the show, we hear about it a lot in our circles and with our listeners, and I hope this gives people that little impetus to kind of get out there and see what's out there and what they could potentially do with somebody else, because it really does. It really gets your creative juices going. It's just another way to kind of satisfy that little urge that we all have to build something new, which I think is very creative and also very entrepreneurial at the same time. So, yeah, it makes it all back. So, yes, thank you so much for being here this week. Thank you, appreciate it All. Right, everyone. That is it for this week. We'll be back in another two weeks with another brand new episode and we will talk to you all then.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening. Thank you so much for joining us for the and she Looked Up Creative Hour. If you're looking for links or resources mentioned in this episode, you can find detailed show notes on our website at andshelookedupcom. While you're there, be sure to sign up for our newsletter for more business tips, profiles of inspiring Canadian creative women and so much more. If you enjoyed this episode, please be sure to subscribe to the show via your podcast app of choice so you never miss an episode. We always love to hear from you, so we'd love it if you'd leave us a review through iTunes or Apple Podcasts. Drop us a note via our website at andshelookedupcom or come say hi on Instagram at andshelookedup. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next week.
