The And She Looked Up Podcast
Every other week The And She Looked Up Podcast sits down with inspiring Canadian women who create for a living. We talk about their creative journeys and their best business tips, as well as the creative and business mindset issues all creative entrepreneurs struggle with. This podcast is for Canadian artists, makers and creators who want to find a way to make a living doing what they love. Your host, Melissa Hartfiel, left a 20 year career in corporate retail and has been happily self-employed as a working creative since 2010. She's a graphic designer, illustrator, writer, community co-founder and has owned and operated a multi-six figure a year creative content business. She resides just outside of Vancouver, BC.
The And She Looked Up Podcast
EP154: Makers, Artists and Creatives: Here's How to Find Your Customers
You’re an artist or a creative or a maker. You’ve made or created the thing, you’re selling the creative services. You’ve put it on social media and your website or Etsy.
But nobody has bought it.
So how the heck are you supposed to find your customers??
Melissa and Heather do a deep dive into how to find your people - and how to sell to them without it being weird or uncomfortable - even if you’re an introvert or shy (or both)! This is an episode full of practical tips but be warned - there's no quick fix!
This is a great episode for creatives who...
- are struggling to find paying customers or clients
- don't know where to look to find their people - we've got lots of ideas!
- struggle with selling - we'll show you how to soft sell instead of hard sell!
- get caught up in their heads when it comes to putting themselves out there - let's talk about mindset!
- are afraid of niching down - it makes it so much easier to know who your people are when you do
- might know what they are... but aren't sure what they're not (it'll make sense)
This episode is brought to you by our Premium Subscriber Community on Patreon and Buzzsprout
For a summary of this episode and all the links mentioned please visit:
Episode154: Makers & Artists: Here's How to Find Your Customers
You can find Melissa at finelimedesigns.com, finelimeillustrations.com or on Instagram @finelimedesigns.
You can find Heather at heatherlynnetravis.com or on Instagram @heathertravis.
You can connect with the podcast on:
- Instagram at @andshelookedup
- YouTube
- Tik Tok at @AndSheLookedUp
For a list of all available episodes, please visit:
And She Looked Up Creative Hour Podcast
Each week The And She Looked Up Podcast sits down with inspiring Canadian women who create for a living. We talk about their creative journeys and their best business tips, as well as the creative and business mindset issues all creative entrepreneurs struggle with. This podcast is for Canadian artists, makers and creators who want to find a way to make a living doing what they love.
Your host, Melissa Hartfiel (@finelimedesigns), left a 20 year career in corporate retail and has been happily self-employed as a working creative since 2010. She's a graphic designer, writer and illustrator as well as the co-founder of a multi-six figure a year business in the digital content space. She resides just outside of Vancouver, BC.
This week's episode of the and she Looked Up podcast is brought to you by our premium subscriber community on Patreon and Buzzsprout. Their ongoing financial support of the show ensures I can continue to bring the podcast to you. Want to help out? Head over to patreoncom. Forward slash, and she looked up. That's patreon p-a-t-r-e-o-n dot com. Forward slash, and she looked up. That's Patreon P-A-T-R-E-O-Ncom. Forward slash, and she looked up. There you can join the community for free or you can choose to be a premium supporter for $4.50 a month, and that's in Canadian dollars. Paid supporters get access to a monthly exclusive podcast episode only available to premium subscribers. You can also click the support the show link in the episode notes on your podcast player to support us via Buzzsprout, where you will also get access to each month's exclusive premium supporter episode. I can't tell you how much I appreciate all our monthly supporters. They are the engine that keeps the podcast running and they're a pretty cool bunch too. And now let's get on with the show.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the and she Looked Up podcast. Each week we sit down with inspiring Canadian women who create for a living. We talk about their creative journeys and their best business tips, as well as the creative and business mindset issues all creative entrepreneurs struggle with. I'm your host, melissa Hartfield, and, after leaving a 20-year career in corporate retail, I've been happily self-employed for 12 years. I'm a graphic designer, an illustrator and a multi-six-figure-a-year entrepreneur in the digital content space. This podcast is for the artists, the makers and the creatives who want to find a way to make a living doing what they love. Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of the and she Looked Up podcast. As always, I am your host, melissa, and this week, my semi-regular co-host, heather Travis, is here.
Speaker 2:Hello Heather, Hello Melissa, Happy day to you.
Speaker 1:Happy, happy day. Yes, so today we are going to be talking about okay. So Heather and I talk about community on this show all the time. If you listen regularly, you probably are aware of how we feel about building a community around your business.
Speaker 1:But one of the things that I keep seeing pop up quite often and we were just talking about this before we came on to record is that sometimes it's not always obvious how to find your community or how to find your people or how to find your customer, and I think Heather and I have been doing this for a very long time now and with multiple businesses, so I think it's something we don't think about quite as much as we maybe did when we first started out. And so last night, when I was prepping for this episode, I was kind of thinking back to when I first started out freelancing, which was in 2008. I hadn't quit my day job yet. I was trying to remember, like, how did I get the word out, how did people find me, and that led me to thinking about how that happened with all my businesses, because it's not something that just happens.
Speaker 1:As we've talked about many times on the show, and with the most recent business, I'm still kind of in that stage of finding my people, so I feel like it's a little bit fresh in my head right now. But when I thought back on it it really was like in some ways it was trial and error, um, and in other ways it was, I think, being willing to almost change course a little bit, in that the original idea of who I thought my customer would be actually didn't turn out to be who my customer really was. And as I sort of started to get myself out there a little more, I started to realize that there was a bigger need over here and if I just adjusted things a little bit, I could people would be excited to talk to me. So, yeah, so that's what we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk about if you are in those early stages of starting, whether it's creative services, whether you are selling your creations as a product, so whether that is your art, your sewing, your photography, whatever the case may be how do you find customers to create that community?
Speaker 1:And sometimes, when you're starting out, it's not obvious, and I think the first step in this process is you have to know how to tell people what it is that you do. Yeah, because let's, just before we start, let's just draw a line under all of this. Nobody's showing up at your door, you are not building it and they are not coming like. That is not how it works, okay. So you have to go into this knowing that there is nobody standing on your doorstep waiting for you to just open the door and say come on in. Okay. So we want to get you to the point that they are standing on your doorstep waiting to come in. So so we're really starting from scratch here, if you're new, or if you're not new, but you're struggling with this. So, heather, go for it.
Speaker 2:Well, I think, if we're starting at the beginning and we know this is where I always start you need to make sure you are confident, just like Melissa said, on what it is you're selling, and that's part of your brand story.
Speaker 2:You need to know the answers to some very critical questions who you are, what it is you're doing, what it is you're making, creating, selling, servicing, et cetera, how you're going to do that, how you're going to deliver it and the why, what is your raison d'etre, what is the little spark inside you? Because, if you can nail the quick sound bites on all of those things, when you do do all of the things that we're going to talk about reaching out to your community, both online and offline, you need to be able to talk about it. So once you find that person, you can't just say I'm Heather, I sell art, do you want to buy some? That doesn't really go anywhere, right? You need to connect with people on a more meaningful level, and that only goes by thoroughly understanding what it is that you are bringing to the table. So we'll start there.
Speaker 1:I think it's important to say, too, that when Heather says you need to know your brand story, you don't need to have a logo at this point, you don't need to have brand colors, you don't need to have a pretty website. That is your branding assets. So that's completely different and you don't need to have that when you start out. I mean, if you do, that's great and it's nice, but you don't need to have it. But you do need to be able to know what you're all about and you need to be able to tell people what you're all about. If Heather came to my door and said hi, I'm Heather, I sell art. What would be the first questions I might ask her? Well, that's great. What kind of art do you sell, heather?
Speaker 2:Exactly what kind of art, how big is it, what themes does it have? What style is it in All of these things? And you don't need to have a beautifully written statement for all of this stuff. It can just be ideas that are in your brain that, as you talk to people, you can flush it out. Like you, you will find your people through honest conversation and through honesty with yourself, and so if you start there and then apply some strategies on actually like actually finding people online and actually finding people offline, it will make a. It will make a big difference. You need to know what you're showing up to the table with and what you actually hope to get in return. You need to be very clear about what it is that you want in all of it, right? Yes?
Speaker 1:This is particularly important if you're a creative service provider. When you're selling a product, you have something physical, tangible, that you can show a person so they can see. Like Heather could walk around to my door with a painting in her hands and say I sell art, this is one of my paintings. That would at least give me an idea of what. But when you're doing creative services so this is things like graphic design, copywriting, photography services In those instances people are really going to want to know about what the actual service is you provide.
Speaker 1:So you're going to need to work those things out in your head. Like what am I actually going to give people when they give me money? What are they going to walk away with? Is it going to be a completed website? Is it going to be a logo? Is it going to be 30 images from their wedding? So those are all things that you need to think about, and we did a whole episode on why your brand is not your logo, and we'll link to that in the show notes, because that is a great one to listen to if you are trying to figure out what your brand story is and you're not sure how to. So we'll link to that. But let's say that you know all those things. You know and you're kind of like okay, I'm Heather, I do large scale paintings that are bright, bold and colorful, I do murals and I do work on commission. Okay, so we know a little bit more about you at this point. That's cool. Who are you telling that to? Yeah, Did you put a sign on your door?
Speaker 2:Actually, funny enough, my studio open house. I did put a sign on the door. But I divide and I think, melissa, you do the same thing. I divide outreach into two very distinct categories the online and the door. But I divide and I think, melissa, you do the same thing. I divide outreach into two very distinct categories the online and the offline. And so I think they connect right. Absolutely they connect, and it should be your goal as a creator to connect the offline to the online, the online to the offline.
Speaker 2:But in terms of outreach, let's start with offline first. I think we need to remember, when you are thinking about finding your people, your people exist in the world, just like you do. So where do those people go? So, in my case, a good connection for me is local restaurants who display art. That has always been worked well for me. It exposes people to me and my art. But it's a real world connection. I have to walk into that restaurant, I have to introduce myself to them, I have to physically take paintings to them, I have to hang them, I have to make sure that I have insurance, perhaps, for the display of such art. So there's real world things that I need to think about. But it all starts with walking into that restaurant and actually having a conversation. That could start online. It could start online, absolutely, so you could follow a local restaurant, engage with them in social media.
Speaker 2:But in order for the connection to actually move forward, you need to walk through the door. So that's a big one is walking through the door. That could be local art fairs, craft fairs, that could be community events. There's lots of in-person places to connect and I wouldn't. I would also I know it's a hard thing for people to do, but I wouldn't forget about your friends, your family, your book club Because, honestly, you know we all hate to be that person in a group of friends.
Speaker 2:But I'll tell you a little minor thing. Recently I joined a new book club and everybody said so, what plans does everybody have for the weekend? And I said I'm going to be hosting my very first studio open house. Would anybody like the details? I can send you an email.
Speaker 2:I opened up the door, everybody positively responded and I had half of my book club show up at my open house and purchase art. And that was incredible. And if I had never opened the door to that in a very non-aggressive way, I would have missed out on making a further personal connection with all of these people, but also I would have not sold five, five paintings because of book club. And so you just, you just never know. And it's not walking around saying buy my stuff, buy my stuff, buy my stuff all the time. It's simply opening the door and giving people the ability to walk through, and I think we all think that that's going to sound sleazy. But you're not hawking things to your family and friends, you're just opening the door and I think that we need to remember to do that.
Speaker 1:Yes things to your family and friends you're just opening the door, and I think that we need to remember to do that. Yes, that everything you said there. It made me think of a whole bunch of different things actually. So the first thing you mentioned is is going. You do a lot of work with restaurants.
Speaker 1:Okay, so this is an interesting conversation because Heather and I are very different personalities. Heather is much more outgoing and loves talking to people and, I would say, more extroverted than I am. I am the opposite. I'm very shy, I'm very introverted, I am very uncomfortable putting myself out there. So you're going to get both sides of the coin here. I think For me, walking into a restaurant cold and doing whatather has suggested would be extremely hard, and if you're like me, you're probably going.
Speaker 1:I could never do that. Never do that. Yeah. And yeah, if you're like heather, you might be like, oh, that's a great idea. I'm gonna go do that down the street right now. Yeah, but I think there's ways that you can warm things up. Like what?
Speaker 1:Yes, where I could do what heather did would be to maybe go have dinner in that restaurant, or maybe not even dinner, because dinner is usually busier, but go at lunchtime when maybe it's not as busy or sort of just off busy hours, order some food, have a chat with the server and just say something along the lines of like, where do you get the art that you hang in your restaurant? Because I'm a local artist and I'd love to be able to see if I could put some of my paintings in here, because I'm starting to feel like I have a little bit of a relationship. I'm not walking in cold, so it makes it easier for someone like me. Plus, you've already shown the restaurant that this person came in and ate our food Like they like what we do do, because you never want to make the ask one-sided, right, you don't?
Speaker 1:know, yeah so I think that's a great thing.
Speaker 2:I would if I could expand on that is, that is, that that relationship can also start online.
Speaker 1:So following that restaurant on Instagram, on Facebook, on wherever and if you're commenting on their post, that might be the exactly and that's a really nice way commenting on their posts very positively Wow, that dish looks beautiful.
Speaker 2:Wow, I love the color palette. Whatever, that is that regular interaction. If you were to slide into their DMs and say, hey, I noticed in your latest post that you have art from a local artist above, would you be open to a conversation? You know that DM doesn't take you outside your comfort zone but allows you to maybe go a little bit further. So I would definitely recommend using online to get you offline.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely it's definitely an option, for sure. The other thing you mentioned was telling people what you do, and so when I was thinking back to how I first started so I didn't leave my full-time job till 2010, but I started freelancing in 2008. So I it was two years before I left my job, and in those early years we were it was a little different too, because we were in that kind of early stages of social media. Like, when did Facebook become available to the masses? I think it was 2007. And Twitter was definitely in its early stages then. So people were a lot more active on social media and they were sharing more of the day-to-day of their lives on social media, because there was a novelty to it at that point.
Speaker 2:Still, yes, I remember people saying why would I go on Twitter? I don't want to know what you're eating for lunch. That's what Twitter was was like. I checked in at this place and I'm eating.
Speaker 1:Yes, you could check in. Oh my gosh, remember, we all checked in the places yeah, yeah Wild and I would never do that today.
Speaker 2:Oh Christ.
Speaker 1:But it was also a much more positive place. Yes, the Twitter of 2008 is not whatever the hell it is today X, whatever it's just a very, very different place. It was where people hung out. You hung out, you had conversations in the evening, kind of thing, but it wasn't unusual to know what your friends were doing, even if you didn't see them.
Speaker 1:So I had gone back to school, I think in 2005, and people knew that and they knew what I was studying, and so by the time I was ready to freelance, my friends and family were kind of almost waiting for me to be done, so they could hire me to help them. So I did new media design, which was like a combo of graphic design and web design and flash and all that kind of stuff and flash does anybody use flash anymore? I don't even know, anyways. So they were waiting and I had no shortage of little projects coming my way. However, in that first year, I got a really good sense of the kind of projects I didn't want to do and the kind of projects that I really liked, and that's where I started to kind of figure out where my people might be was based on the type of projects I really liked to do.
Speaker 1:But that came from it definitely came from word of mouth. Is people like I need a web designer? Oh, my friend, she just started doing web design, you know kind of thing. So so I was getting people contacting me and in those early days I did. I did a site for a guy who sold batteries and I did one you know like all kinds of random, random stuff. One of the very first logos I did I I didn't know she was still out there, but was um the woman who runs menopause chicks.
Speaker 2:And now she's on the news.
Speaker 1:Yes, her logo that she uses. That was one of the very first logos I designed it's. She's still using it.
Speaker 2:I follow them on Instagram. I love them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's amazing. But like I was doing all kinds of random stuff and it took a little while for me to figure out who my people were, and it came from in a very funny way. I had started a food blog, not knowing that food blogging was a thing, but I was really into food photography and so I thought I'll start a blog where I can just post my photos and how I'm learning how to be food photography and through that and through Twitter and through kind of just going down rabbit holes, which I think is really important you have to be willing to get a lot of rabbit holes when you're first starting out.
Speaker 1:I found out that there was all these other people who had food blogs, and I found out that they hung out on Twitter in the evenings and chatted with one another, and so I thought I should. I was using the default WordPress theme at the time. I was like, well, I should make my WordPress site look nice because I'm a web designer. And then, by hanging out on Twitter in the evenings and sort of seeing all these food bloggers and sort of working up my nerve to hop into conversations, the way I hopped into conversations was this was 2008. So WordPress was still very new. You couldn't. All the things you can do on your own website today required a lot of work back then.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, coding and some CSS and lots of little tweaks.
Speaker 1:And so a lot of these people had questions. I'm trying to figure out how to do this. I'm trying to and I knew I knew the answers, so I started sharing the answers and I found my people. That's how I found it. It was very organic and I that became my niche. I became known as the person who helps food bloggers design their websites and their logos, and so I was doing branding and website design for food bloggers, and that was, yes, how I found my people. But it was through those little connections and offering to help.
Speaker 1:Now, social media today very different, a lot harder to kind of make those kind of connections that I was making in 2008, but but it's still possible and you absolutely come from a place of service. Like that's how I find people. I was serving them before you know, and so. So there's that. And then the other thing I wanted to mention is something you said reminded me of somebody in one of the groups I'm in who and I can't remember her exact story, but she made, I think, like treat pouches for when you're walking.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And. But she like made them look really cool, like like with like embroidery and all kinds of stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so somebody had asked her. She said she gets asked about the pouches all the time and she doesn't feel comfortable selling to people while she's out walking her dog, right. And I was like, wow, this is wild, because you are putting it out there and the people are coming, but you're freaked out that they're coming. And so we chatted for a bit and I just gave her a little turn of phrase, like just flipped the perspective on its head a little bit, so she had a way to talk to people, because she's like I don't want to give people my card. It's pushy. And I'm like you don't have to give them your card right off the bat. All you have to say is, if somebody comes up to you and says that is a really cool treat pouch, where did you get it? They're asking you where you got it. All you have to say is, oh, thank you, I make these. Like this is one of my own. I made this and I have a little shop. I sell them online and yeah, and you can ask them if they want your card, if they want your card, if they want your card, if they want your card. Yeah, because they came to you, they asked you. You are not selling to them, you are answering their question. Yes, asked you a question, so just remember that when people open the door, you can walk in. Yes, you don't have to pull the door closed again.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's what people were doing to her. They were opening the door. They wanted to pull the door closed again. That's what people were doing to her. They were opening the door. They wanted to know where she got it. The reason they wanted to know where she got it. They were curious. Maybe they might like to buy one. Maybe they might like to buy one from her, like they're not. Yeah, she just had to kind of flick that switch in her brain. That was perfectly okay. If somebody asked her that, she could tell them she made them.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, and I'll tell you. I'll give you a very personal example. So we all know if you've been listening for a while that I took a contract job to help fill up the tank after painting exhibition works for 18 months. Anyway, in my office I hang up my artwork, because why wouldn't I hang my artwork on big walls? It's a perfect storage and B? Uh makes me very happy. But the also part of that is people walk into my office daily and say, oh, wow, look at this. This is incredible. Wait, did you do this? Yes, I did. I'm an artist. I'm not blah, blah blah.
Speaker 2:You know, you can buy it online. Here's the price of it. Here's the exact dimension. Would you like to put it in a car? Like you don't have to dive right down. Wow, you're an artist. Yeah, I am Cool.
Speaker 2:Sometimes that's the end of the conversation. Yeah, the door was opened. I responded positively. And then, quite often, the conversation continues further. Wow, what do you paint? Oh, well, I. And then you answer the question Again, not being pushy or selling, just enthusiasm for enthusiasm, and I think that's service for service, enthusiasm for enthusiasm, that's what you need and what, because what you put out is what you get back. And so if you put out enthusiasm, you will get enthusiasm back and it might not go anywhere this time, right, somebody might say three months from now. Oh man, I met a woman on a dog walk and I see her regularly who makes these treat bags. I'm gonna ask her about them the next time I see her, and they'll be perfect for Christmas, because it might not be the first time that they talk to you that that sale idea is planted. But you can plant that seed for later if you just respond to the questions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, positively, 100 yeah, it is all about planting seeds. Selling what you do is about planting seeds and not knowing when the seeds are going to to sprout or blossom.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, I think that's another one, too for sure, that people like planting seeds, so some things grow a lot faster than others, and so sometimes I have people who have been engaging with me for years and just haven't bought anything yet, and it's A because of finances. It could be because they haven't found the piece, and it's A because of finances, it could be because they haven't found the piece that really speaks to them, but they're still fans and they still follow, and they still speak my name in rooms where I am not, and that is a valuable, valuable person, and so, whether they ever do or not, they speak my name and they are enthusiastic supporters. They speak my name and they are enthusiastic supporters, and that means something, I think, for sure. Like we can all say somebody doesn't need to be a customer of yours to be a big fan or supporter, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Remember the old adage, which is quite rooted in truth, that it takes seven to eight connections before a person will buy from you. So those connections I think in this day and age we think of those connections as being online connections and how many emails they get from us. But remember that those connections can also be running into them while you're walking your dog or when they come into your office at work. All those little things are points of connection, of them becoming familiar with who you are, what you do and building up that trust factor, and that's where those in-person connections are so valuable.
Speaker 1:We trust people far quicker, I think, in person, when we've met them, looked them in the eye, had a conversation with them, and those are the people we're more likely to recommend to our friends and family when they come with looking for. You know, we'd love to get some art for little Janie's bedroom. She's going into a big girl bedroom and we'd love to get her some art. I work with this woman who makes the most incredible, exactly, you know. You just, you never know where those conversations are happening. So I think, yes, definitely In this day and age too.
Speaker 1:I think people kind of scoff at business cards. Scoff, that's such a great word, I love it. Scoff, I love that word. Yes, anyway, they kind of scoff at business cards as being old fashioned and things like that. And, yes, you can use things like QR codes and all that kind of stuff, but there is still so many opportunities to hand out a card. For instance, that person walking her dog. If the person shows interest in like, yeah, I'd be really interested in that, then she whips out a business card.
Speaker 1:Here's my card. You know, my website is on there. There's a QR code that you can scan to get to my site. Check them out and, you know, see if there's anything that you like. It's just answering questions, like with information. You're not selling anything. You're providing them with an answer to you know. It started out with a question where did you get that? And it winds up with them with your business card scanning a QR code. Yeah, the other thing with business cards. This happens to me all the time. Somebody gives you a card, you stuff it in your jacket pocket or the bottom of your purse and you forget about it and six months later you wear that jacket again, you pull the card out and you're like, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Whereas if I just had a conversation with you and we had gone our separate ways six months later. I wouldn't remember it, I'd be like you'd be out of my head. But just pulling that card out of my jacket pocket is like, oh yeah, I forgot about her. Yeah, yeah, I'm going to go check that out. I'm going to put it on my desk right now so I remember to do it tomorrow. So business cards have a habit of hanging around and you can get 200 business cards printed for cheap, for cheap, cheap, oh, totally cheap, cheap.
Speaker 2:And I have to tell you, even before I had business cards, I just scrapped pieces of not scrap piece of paper but I like handmade some with some old canvas, like I made them, and it was fine as long as you have something that you can give somebody. But honestly, you can make business cards so, so, so cheaply. And in fact, again, to continue the offline meeting people, I have recently started connecting with local female entrepreneur or female identifying entrepreneur groups in our region and there's regular dinner parties and I am connecting with all different types of female identifying people in our greater region and these are people who are massage therapists, light therapists, dentists, but like literally every range. The connection is that we live in this community and we identify as female entrepreneurs and so that, in and of itself, going and meeting a group of 30 women and exchanging business cards this is why we are there. We all went to this event with the express purpose of connecting and exchanging business cards so that they could then bring our name up in another room or we could make meaningful connections for collaboration, etc.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I have a collaboration coming out of one of those meetings because we made a meaningful in-person connection over mocktails and tacos and that connection would not have come if I had not gone to that event and so finding people. Sometimes you go to those events and you don't find your people, but you know that they're not there only by going and so you have to kind of you have to throw spaghetti against the wall. I think a lot of this is going to be experimentation. Whether it's online or offline, finding your people is trial and error and it will evolve as your business evolves and grows. I think that's a big thing to remember.
Speaker 1:I think when you're first starting out, you may not be thinking of other business owners as, like I think, when we start out, we're focused on selling, like we need to make money, and so you might not be thinking of other potential business owners as a way to make money. But you don't know, like you said, you don't know who you're going to meet at these events, and some of them are busts and you know, and that's fine, you just you go to another one. But what can happen? Like you don't know, if one of those women owns a store and she's looking for local artists to bring their wares in to sell. You don't know if one of those women runs a huge bridal fair every year and she's looking for photography vendors to come get in front of her brides, maybe those people aren't your direct customers, although if they own a retail outlet they very well could be.
Speaker 1:you could start selling wholesale, but they might be the intermediary step to get to your person and so those, those relationships can be super valuable, as you as as you said. So yeah, and you can find those things like um, there's lots of groups online. There's like a um, I'm going to see if I can find it right now, but there's several in Vancouver. I'm I'm belong to their Facebook groups. It's how I found I'm looking for a new bookkeeper and I just put it out there that I was looking for a bookkeeper in both groups and I literally had 30 people reach out to me to offer their bookkeeping services.
Speaker 2:That's the other thing, too, is use your existing community, even if it's one people, 10 people, whatever it is. And I've done it for murals. Hey, friends in the community, what businesses do you think need a mural? And so it was like a group think. I had all these people in my community say, oh, I drive by this building all the time and it's boring, it needs a fresh mural. And they copied the you know they commented and tagged the business.
Speaker 2:And then the business reach out to me and says, hey, I just saw this tag about mural like what's happening here, and so those can you never, you really never know. And so, like Melissa said at the beginning, if you build it they will not come, but if you put yourself out there they might. You just have to, you have to, you have to open the door, you have to be willing to put yourself out there and and see what happens.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so there's lots of Facebook groups that you can do that and just start searching around. Search around for female entrepreneurs, female creatives, female entrepreneurs in your city, small business owners in your city, like. Just search, pop it in the search bar on Facebook and see what comes up, because there are so many out there, and then just join some that look like they're active. Make sure you read the rules. You'll find some are not as valuable as others. Some it just feels like it's just people dropping links to their businesses and some of the businesses can be pretty scammy, looking spammy, scammy. So you know. But join as many as you can at first and find the ones that feel like they're a good fit of back and forth give and take, and then the ones you know like I'm in somewhere, it's just noise and so I have the group muted and I only go in when I'm specifically looking for something. I have found guests for this podcast by doing that.
Speaker 1:Like if I've got a specific topic I want to discuss, but I don't know an expert. I'll go in and I'll just say like this I have this podcast. I'm looking for somebody who is really good at this who'd be interested in being a guest. It's great, but you can also do real life so you can check out your local chamber of commerce. They often have networking nights. That's the whole reason of being. You know, is to kind of yes.
Speaker 1:So take a look around and see if there's local chamber of commerce. If your city or town is small and doesn't have one although I think even most very small towns, I agree Yep, have some kind of chamber or something to help with business development yeah, if you don't have one, see what the nearest larger town has, because they're probably more than willing to welcome you Business improvement associations. So these are BIAs, they're often called. So these are like local organizations, usually smaller than a chamber. So if you have like a main street in your town, that main street might have its own BIA where it we do in our town.
Speaker 1:Yeah, most towns do, and usually all the businesses on that street will belong to it and they will often have events or meetings and you can meet people that way. This is where it's a little harder when you're a home-based business is you don't necessarily have um, you're not necessarily as welcomed in some of those groups, yeah, um, but the chamber will usually welcome you, but the bia might be like you're not on our street, you're right, you know, but it's worth checking out. And sometimes the smaller the town you are, the more welcoming they're going to be, because it's worth checking out. And sometimes the smaller the town you are, the more welcoming they're going to be, because it's not like you're Scott Road in Surrey Delta or Kingsway in Burnaby, vancouver, where it's a big street and it's packed with businesses, so worth a shot. Also, check out local community Facebook groups. So if you're in your local city's Facebook group, they often have a day of the week where businesses can post, so check those out and see if you can make some connections there.
Speaker 1:But then in terms of finding like your, like direct customers, so that's where it can get a little harder and social media is really rough these days in many ways. I really wish I didn't have to be on there, quite frankly. But the way I look at social media right now, I don't look at it so much as a way to necessarily connect with new people. I just look at it as a way to nurture my existing people, yeah, and have conversations with them, which is important.
Speaker 2:And I would argue honestly, the most new meaningful relationships that I've developed have come through fostering and building, fanning the flames of existing ones. And so by, for instance, my Saturday morning chart class, by continuing to deliver that to while it's not a huge audience, you know I probably have 25 people log on when I go live not huge, considering it's been going on for three years. Not huge, but fanning that flame and consistently reinforcing that positive relationship with that small group of people and consistently reinforcing that positive relationship with that small group of people I have garnered. So many other new people have found me because people have shared their charts.
Speaker 2:People have said I really love engaging with this person brings joy, love, the color. So they, by focusing on that relationship, they in fact opened the door to other people by themselves. I didn't have to actually say come on in, I just had to be here when they got here. But it was only through nurturing existing relationships and making sure that they don't forget that I am here and that I love them and that I value the relationship that we have and that I am of service to them in a way that makes me happy and they can see that and that's why they want to open the door for more people to come in.
Speaker 1:I've seen so many people on threads in particular. I don't know why Instagram feeds me all these nasty threads, but it's exhausting. I've seen so many artists and creatives complaining about Instagram and Facebook algorithms and not getting new followers and not being seen. I just want to tell them to stop talking, if I'm really honest, because that's not what social media should be about. It should be about nurturing those people who, like you know we've talked about this before.
Speaker 1:It's like the phone company, right, we get so annoyed when they offer great deals to people who are not customers, but they forget about those of us who've been sitting, you know, with TELUS or Bell or whoever, for 10 years, like, where's our deal? And so that's how it. When your people see you on social media complaining about how you can't get new followers and yet you don't interact with them, you don't respond to their comments, you don't have any two-way engagement going on with the people who show up all the time. That's really off-putting. So I think, as far as social media goes, it's a nurture tool, and if you were doing things like Heather, where you can bring, where other people are doing the work of bringing people to you because they have such a positive experience with you that is going to help draw your people to you, because chances are that the friends of your existing customers are probably your people as well, or some of them will be anyway. They might not all be but so that's.
Speaker 2:I will say, though you need to be explicit, still Right. And so people share their sharts, because I remind them two or three times in every live. I want you to share your sharts, I want you to tell people that you just sharted, and so saying that over and over again, not all of them do it.
Speaker 1:And they won't, and they have their reasons, and that's fine, exactly.
Speaker 2:But would they have done it without me prompting them? Probably not. Sometimes they need a nudge Exactly, and so you need to give them that nudge. Sometimes they need a nudge Exactly, and so you need to give them that nudge. And even something like when I hosted my studio open house, I was very clear that bring a friend, bring 10 if you want. And people did, and I had people say I'm so glad you said that because I wanted to bring a friend, but I didn't know if it was going to be okay. Yeah. And so you have to open the door and you really have to be explicit about what it is that you are hoping for. People are not mind readers, particularly when it comes like nobody is a mind reader and they can't read the needs of a small business owner or artist or creative. You need to tell them what you want them to do.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Couldn't have said it better myself. Yeah, I think too. One of the things that's been helpful for me is doing in-person events. So there is not a community out there in Canada that doesn't have some kind of holiday market or spring market or farmer's market or school craft fair or something.
Speaker 1:Something there is at least one in your community that happens on a regular basis. I am willing to guarantee it. If you don't know about it, it's because you haven't found it yet. You might just need to dig a little deeper. It could be a church sale, it could be something at the Legion, like it. Just you just have to dig around, and I bet once you dig around, you'll probably find more than one More. Yeah, but depending on the size of where you live, and that is a great way to get out and being seen, and I see people judging whether or not an event is a success based on how much they sell. And there does come a point in your career where that is a very valid metric because hopefully at that point you're busy and you need to decide if something is worth the financial investment. But when you're first starting out going to those kinds of events and setting up a table, even if it's half a table, like I've done.
Speaker 1:So many markets where you can split a table with somebody else you don't even have to do a full table, but it's a great marketing exercise to get in front of eyeballs and for people to touch and feel what it is that you do and become top of mind for them.
Speaker 1:Touch and feel what it is that you do and become top of mind for them. So even if you don't sell a single thing, the fact that you showed up is planting seeds and helping you find your people and having those business cards to give out or having a QR code at your table that people can scan or having something that they can take away with them. So, at all my markets, I give out little, teeny, tiny octopus stickers to kids, all the kids that come. It costs me like a penny to make a whole bunch of them. Like, honestly, it is one of the cheapest little giveaways that I can do. The kids love them because they're stickers and they're bright colors and they get to choose. I have three colors and they get to. They spend forever picking their favorite color, such decisions.
Speaker 1:You know like it's little kids, yeah, but it's just a great way to get remembered. I'm not just another vendor to their parents, to their parents. I am now the vendor who gave their kid a sticker, like there's just that little extra thing that makes me memorable. So markets are a great way to kind of start to get out there and find your people.
Speaker 2:I would also say markets. Not only is it the people on the other side of the table that you're interested in, right Like the people who are coming to the market, it's meeting the other vendors, like making connections with those other vendors.
Speaker 1:The market, it's meeting the other vendors.
Speaker 2:Exactly Like making connections with those other vendors, because they might point you in the direction of a local restaurant that's looking for partnerships. They might point you in the direction of a Facebook group that's really helpful. They might point you in the direction of a supplier who can get something locally for you. You have no idea what connections are waiting for you until you walk through the door and open yourself up to it, and I know for somebody like me it's a little bit easier to just throw myself into the crowd and be like hi, I'm Heather, and be loud and here's my business card. But even if you're not loud and boisterous, that's the opportunity to walk up to people. Hi, I really like your booth. Can I introduce myself? My name's Melissa. I have a table over there. I really love what you're doing. Just wanted to introduce myself, that's it. That's all you need to do is introduce yourself, because the door is not open.
Speaker 1:If you're not that outgoing. But there will be people with booths next to you and you, at bare minimum, introduce yourself to those people. And I still consider myself an event newbie but I would say about half the events I've been to I have been the one who's had to introduce myself because the other person was even shyer than I was, and the other half it's been the other person who has said hey'm so-and-so. But you know, just you, just you just want to say hi and introduce yourself in case you have to go to the bathroom in the middle of the event and you need somebody to watch your booth. Like at least then you can say hey, I'm just you know, or I'm gonna go get a coffee or whatever. But at every market I have done I have had conversations with my neighbors when it's been slow, because there will be slow moments at any market, and they've been able to. I think all the markets I've done, I've been around people who've been more experienced than me. But they're able to give you like, if they do the market scene regularly, if there's a market that you've been wondering if it's worth your time, they can give you the 411 on it Like, yeah, that one was a waste of my time or that one's not worth the booth fee, or this was a really good one. I met some really great wholesalers, or whatever. It's just a great way to kind of meet people and learn more about what's going on, and I mentioned at the beginning that you're going to have to go down a lot of rabbit holes, and I think this is something a lot of people miss about. This is when you're starting out. You need to start diving into stuff on YouTube, diving into stuff on social media.
Speaker 1:With the business that I have now, I'm an illustrator. I create mainly stationary type items with my illustrations. I do art prints, but the rest is pretty much all stationary items. And at the time when I started I didn't really know who you know. I just thought people would buy pretty cards to give to friends or to send a thank you note to their kid's teacher or something. I just figured that was my niche, right. Those were my people. But when I started to do a little more research and dive down some rabbit holes, I discovered this whole world of journaling.
Speaker 1:There's an entire huge community of people who are obsessed with their journals and their planners and some of them and junk journaling and there's YouTube channels for this and they have huge audiences. Yeah, and I realized that my stickers that I make are perfect for journalers and people who are really into their planners. They like to dress them up. So this was a. This was a whole group of people who I didn't know were my people, right, you know? And then, as I continue to dive down, I found this whole other group of people who are really into snail mail.
Speaker 1:There's like this whole snail mail revolution happening. They love pen palling, they love sending happy mail, they decorate their envelopes, they send their pen pals goodies, and there's again YouTube channels all about this. Like, I spent months watching these YouTube channels, just channels all about this. Like I spent months watching these YouTube channels, just fascinated with people would show how you know, today I'm sending a letter to my pen pal, amy in South Dakota and she, you know, like they would show their beautiful calligraphy of setting up the page and then they would send all these little, they'd send stickers and they would send like and I was like these are my people.
Speaker 1:Like these are people who send cards and who write letters and who want stickers, and so again, I found a whole group of people and once I found those people, I was able to join Facebook groups where they hang out. I was able to find them through hashtags on social media. I was able to start following them. I was able to start commenting on their stuff I've done the last two years. February is what's known as IncoRhymo or Letter Month. They're two separate things. Incorhymo is International Correspondence Writing Month. It's kind of a play on.
Speaker 1:NaNoWriMo and letter month is just a month writing a month of letters. Different groups organize them. They are separate. I learned this year that they are completely separate and you can't mix them up.
Speaker 2:Do not confuse them.
Speaker 1:No, but again, that's even interesting, like, wow, I didn't realize there was, you know, different factions, right, so last year, different factions, right, so last year.
Speaker 1:There's worlds out there we don't know about and we don't find them unless we allow ourselves time to go down rabbit holes. But when I discovered what this was last year, I thought well, this is great. I love writing letters, like I legit enjoy the letter writing community. It's not just a community I fell into, but I've always loved to write letters. So last year I did a thing where you could sign up to get a letter from me, including some goodies from my shop, and I had a few people sign up and I sent some letters to some people who I had never come across before, and since then a lot of them have bought things from me because they got to see my stuff.
Speaker 1:And then this year I actually planned out a few months in advance how to promote that. I wanted to do the same thing and I had a better idea of what worked and what didn't work. This year and this year I sent mail to people in the Netherlands. I sent mail to people in Japan. I sent mail to people in the Netherlands. I sent mail to people in Japan.
Speaker 1:I sent mail to people in the UK as well as all over Canada and the US, and I still didn't fill the full 29 days of February. But I did a lot more than I did the year before. This year I made them sign up to my email list to get a letter from me, so I grew my email list. But again, people who love to send letters and things and I've already met a couple of really cool new people through this who I think they'll probably become customers. But honestly, I don't even care if they do, because they're just cool people and I'm glad I know them now. So I think that's how you have to approach it is just think of them as cool people Like. I think that's how you have to approach. It is just think of them as cool people Like. You're a cool person. I'm so glad I got to meet you. The rest will come.
Speaker 1:But it's that early nurturing. So go down those rabbit holes. Like Heather, you did this when you started with mural painting, Because I remember us having conversations. You'd be like I found these two girls who run this mural business and you sent me off to their website and then you found other people and yeah, you were watching videos of people painting murals and stuff and you just you went down the rabbit hole and figured out like this is something I can do and I now I know how to kind of find the people who might like it. So I think it's so important to have a research day once a month or oh god yeah.
Speaker 2:And like those rabbit holes I find and I've gone, done some really recently I've been um super curious about airbrushing uh, both for muraling and canvases and on clothes. So I've gone down some airbrush rabbit holes and I've started talking to artists who make nothing like anything that I would. I would, I would never make the kind of art that they're making because it's like 3d printing and their hand painting thing, like it's a whole other kettle of fish. But we're having really interesting conversations about airbrush and so I've gone down those rabbit holes and I'm talking to them about what supplies are they using? What are they using? Where did they buy their first ones, how did they learn the techniques? And so all of those conversations so enlightening, so enlightening.
Speaker 2:Plus, you're just making connection and funny enough what you just said about cool people and they might not become a customer, but cool people, and I would put a lot of friends and family into that bucket. I have a lot of friends and family who have bought lots of my art and are collectors. I also have a lot of friends and family who've never bought a single thing and I promise you never, ever will, and that is a okay, it's not their style, it's not in their budget, it's their reason. I don't care, but they support and they say my name in a room when I'm not there and they share my posts, and so you can't discount the cool people who aren't going to become customers, because they are still allies. And I would also say, just thinking of the personal connection place and we've talked about it a little bit when we talked, uh I think we talked about linkedin, but you also had a really fantastic episode on linkedin, uh, that you I'm totally forgetting who the co-host was, but you talked- oh, I've done two.
Speaker 1:Actually did one with luis brogan she's offended. She's a fabulous youtube channel for people, for small businesses who want to start linkedin. And I also did one with Darina, the food photographer, who uses it to find brand clients to work with Brand clients exactly.
Speaker 2:So both episodes incredibly helpful and both of those prompted me to start using my LinkedIn as more of an aggressive, and I've actually sold a lot of paintings because of LinkedIn. It's a place where people who worked with me in the beef industry so nothing to do with art have said wow, this is literally my only connection to you. I don't even know what your email address is anymore, heather, but I saw your post on LinkedIn. Wow, bought the painting Amazing. And now we're on my e-newsletter list, and so you can't forget about those real world connections that are still somewhere online. So maybe on Facebook, maybe on LinkedIn, and that's an opportunity to connect with more people. But again, if I hadn't asked so, if I hadn't put it up and said, hey, this painting's for sale, nobody would have reached out to me to say do you have any paintings for sale?
Speaker 1:You can have all the paintings on sale that you want to have. You could have tons of paintings on sale, but if nobody knows they're on sale, it's like the tree in the forest, correct? Nobody's here to hear it fall. Did it fall?
Speaker 2:Yeah, did it fall.
Speaker 1:Exactly, nobody knows. You have a sale on. Did you have a sale?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, that's exactly it.
Speaker 1:Yes, you didn't. No, you didn't. You just had a bunch of paintings in your office and maybe they were on sale, maybe they weren't. Yeah, who knows, who knows.
Speaker 2:Exactly, I think that's yes, that's a big one, I think, for sure in terms of making connections is putting you have to. You have to as softly as you're comfortable, but you still have to put yourself out there.
Speaker 1:Yes, and there's, like you said softly, there's subtle ways that you can do it. It doesn't have to be a hard sell. No, speaking of LinkedIn, I got a message, a connection. I have two connection requests in the last couple of weeks with people that I had other connections with and and I connected with one of them and he worked for RBC Dominion Securities and as soon as he found out that I was already with RBC Dominion Securities, he was gone, gone. And then I had another one reach out, who was an accountant, wanted to connect. We also had lots of mutual connections, so I accepted the connection request.
Speaker 1:Got a message from him immediately, trying to sell me his accounting services and wanting to set up a call, and I just responded to him. I said you know, thanks for reaching out. I said I really don't love it when the first email is a hard sell. And wanting to get me on a phone call, and I said you know, I just said I have a bookkeeper and an accountant. I'm very happy with their services. So thanks, that is a hard sell. And wanting to get me on a phone call, and I said you know, I just said I have a bookkeeper and an accountant, I'm very happy with their services. So thanks. That is a hard sell, okay, and it doesn't go over well in a lot of cases. You don't need to do that, you don't need to be that person, it's.
Speaker 1:All the things we have been talking about today have been very soft sell and, coming from a place of service, how can I help you? You have a question? Let me answer it for you. You need help with something. Let me see if I can help you with it. You're serving them in some way rather than coming at them. You're letting them. You're putting yourself out there, but you're letting them feel like they're coming to you. Do you know what I mean? Totally, yeah, so I mean you have to put yourself out there to, but you're letting them feel like they're coming to you. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I mean you have to put yourself out there to get seen, but you don't have to be in their face aggressive about it. No, no, no. And even funny enough, I'm thinking to my recent studio open house. I obviously promoted it in social media, promoted it to my newsletter subscribers and my book club. But then to make sure that everybody knew where they were going when they got to the house because my studio is a separate entrance I didn't want people going to my front door, I wanted them to come into the studio entrance and I ended up making a sandwich board that sat in my driveway and instead of just having an arrow to point people in the right direction arrow to point people in the right direction I said Heather Lynn Travis, studio open house and sale inside. And then I put the little payment methods and I in fact I was watching people walk down my street and see the sign and they came in. And they only came in because I put the sign out front porch, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's called advertising marketing.
Speaker 2:Exactly, it's very different from a hard sell. Yes, and it really like it was just there. It's not like it was a big flashy sign, it literally was hand-painted. But then they all said, wow, it's so cool to be able to be invited in. I see you doing stuff all the time, how neat. And I met neighbors who I only ever knew their dog before, and now I know their name too, and and and so. But it was just putting them myself out there in a very, very subtle way, very subtle way, and and. So that just to me, that was the soft sell, the open invitation. My door is open. When I took that sandwich board down, people don't knock on the door. When that sandwich board is up, they can knock on the door. Yeah exactly.
Speaker 1:It doesn't have to be in your face, hard sell at all. And I think when you come from that place of service and you do a good job, people remember you and they recommend you. And I see this in my local community Facebook group, which is a big group. It's got 18,000 people in it. It's not a small Wow, yeah, wow. I mean I live in the suburbs of Vancouver, so we're not out in rural Canada here, we're in the suburbs. I'm in a rural suburban suburb, if that makes sense, but anyway, it's a fairly big Facebook community and there are several women in the community who make incredible cakes, baked goods cupcakes and I'm talking like fancy cupcakes, you know right, the incredible frosting, the kind that you would get for a birthday party.
Speaker 1:Um, some of the cakes they're like, uh, cake boss type cakes, they're like works of art um, you know, and there's, there's a woman who sells, uh, homemade butter chicken sauce in quart jars and stuff, that's all she. She does that and she does scones. It's really interesting mix Butter chicken and scones, but yeah, anyway, because I would not combine the two.
Speaker 2:No, you wouldn't think of those, as necessarily I wouldn't dip a scone in butter chicken sauce.
Speaker 1:That's really all she does is these two things, but they all have their specialities. They do not have websites. A couple of them have Facebook pages, but several of them do not. But they are. The product they provide is delicious and all the advertising they have to do is when somebody jumps in that Facebook group and says we have a birthday in a week and I need a dozen pink frosted, sparkly cupcakes, who can I get them from? There will be 15, 20 people will jump on that thread and recommend the person who does cupcakes. That person doesn't even have to show up and it's because they have provided such a good level of service and a delicious product that, see, people are always willing to jump in with recommendations on Facebook. People cannot wait on Facebook to tell you what you should do.
Speaker 1:I've got a guy. Yes, they want to give you their opinion. Yes, they want to tell you what you should do. They want to tell you where you should go where you're going to get the best deal and if you don't listen to them, they're going to be annoyed. But where you're going to get the best deal, and if you don't listen to them, they're going to be annoyed. But Facebook is just wild. So that is a great way to find your people is. All it takes is to provide amazing cupcakes for a few people in that group and you're going to be set. You're probably going to have more cupcake orders than you can. There was a lady. She's not even in the. I think she's moved or she stopped doing it. All she made was Black Forest cakes. That's all she did. Oh wow. And she had a constant stream of people who wanted her cakes. I think they were very boozy and anyway, just yeah.
Speaker 1:And like you know, she really these people really niched down. They knew what people wanted, they knew kind of how to get the word out about themselves and then they let everyone else do the work for them, and that's really.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think exactly. You just touched on something which is the niching, niching down, and that is part of really understanding very clearly who who you are and who your business is and who you are not. And you said it earlier when you were talking about some early projects, when you first started going freelance some of my early commissions I was so happy that somebody wanted to commission me to paint something. They just want to pay you.
Speaker 1:Somebody wants to pay me, Like that's exciting I felt like, well, who's the woman who they like?
Speaker 2:They like me, they really like me. That's the way I felt when I was like, oh my God, somebody wants to pay me for a commission Without actually a commission. So does not look like a Heather Lynn Travis, multiple commissions that I've done. So don't look like me to the point that I'm like why did you even come to me Like I don't? Anyway, they were trying to be supportive of a local community member.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah of course I get it and I'm glad I did those things. I'm glad I didn't say no, but I learned that those are what I say no to in the future, and also because it clarified for me what I am not and what I don't want to have attached. Not that I'm not proud of the works they're beautiful works If they came back into my house right now I'd be fine with them but those like niching down and knowing very clearly who you are and who you are not. So you mentioned wedding photographers earlier. If I met somebody at a networking event and they said I'm a wedding photographer, honestly it would. And white, uh, um, handids, you've got my attention, if you are right, because, oh interesting, black and white. You only work in black and white.
Speaker 1:Like there's questions to be asked after this exactly exactly when you niche down people and you tell people who you're what your, your niche is. They are curious, yes, and they want to know like, can you make a business doing just black and white? Like, are there people who don't like how?
Speaker 2:do you deal with?
Speaker 1:people who don't want black and white. And when you tell them why I just don't work for them. Then they have even more questions because like you can, you can turn work down Like it's it. It sparks conversations and conversations are what people remember. They conversations and conversations are what people remember. They remember you when they've had a conversation with you because they found out you're interesting and something in what you said clicked in their brain and they've filed you away.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and that's. You said something very important there is that you know who you are and you know who you were not. And right, you know. Back at the beginning of the episode, we talked about knowing what your brand story is, and it is so much easier to tell your brand story when you know what you are not.
Speaker 2:Very clear.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's so. When you are trying to, when you're in those early days and we all go through this, it's, it's completely normal and I think it's part of the evolution of your business, as you kind of, especially when you, even if you've done this before and you're starting a new business, I think we still go through it again with a new business yeah, because it is very much about figuring out. You know, we do all the things and we figure out where, what we are not. And I have to say, once I figured out who I was and who I wanted to serve, it becomes a thousand times easier to market yourself and find those people because you know where to look for them. You know, if you you know, in my service side of my business, I only work with people in the food space, people who create food content, so it's not even just like food brands. If a food brand comes to me, the person I am going to work with is the person who creates content for their social media channels or for their newsletter list. Like, it's very specific and it's very dialed in and because it is, I know where to go to post things. I know the kind of content that those people are looking for. I know what their pain points are. I know how to market my services. My services are tailored around those pain points and that makes it easier to market them. I know what Facebook groups they hang out in, and that makes it easier to market them. I know what Facebook groups they hang out in, I know who they talk to, and it took me a good 18 to 24 months to kind of really dial into my niche and get out to those people. But now in the last six months I'm at a point where I have enough word of mouth marketing going now, because now I'm the girl in that spot or the woman in that spot or the person in that spot.
Speaker 1:There is another fellow who does similar to what I do, but he's niched down even further. He is the person that people work with when they want to get set up. He gets them set up. I am the person they come to when they want the content created. So him and I don't even compete. We kind of compliment each other and so it's very easy. Now when people go into these groups and say I'm looking for somebody to help me with this, people are like this is who you need to talk to and again, they're doing my marketing for me because I've niched down.
Speaker 1:And then, in the product side of my business, once I realized that my people were planners and snail mailers, suddenly I knew how to tailor my marketing materials. I knew what to post on Instagram, I knew what hashtags to use and if I get to the point and this is one of the things I'd like to do this year where I want to work with influencers I know who the influencers are that I am going to reach out to because they are the snail mail. You know, I'm not looking for a generic lifestyle influencer. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure I'd get a few sales from working with somebody like that, but I'm going to get far more sales from working with a 2000 follower snail mail influencer. And I've gotten to the point like this was a big success for me. Last week, canada post started following me. Yeah, they have been. Yeah, they've been reposting my stuff for the last month and last month they they followed me because I am like it's.
Speaker 1:I'm all about the snail mail like I'm, yes, showing the stamps that I've, that I'm using, and this is another thing I do. This is another way that I kind of dive into who my people are, wherever possible. And you're not. Not everyone would be able to do this, because it really depends on the type of product you make, but as a stationery maker, a lot of my product can go out within Canada via letter mail.
Speaker 2:And so.
Speaker 1:I'm sending my stuff to snail mailers who spend hours creating these beautiful, intricate envelopes to put their letters in, so the least I can do is send them their order in an envelope that has really cool stamps on it.
Speaker 1:So, I go to Canada Post's website and I buy my stamps from Canada Post Because my local post office just has whatever the new release is and the standard maple leaf.
Speaker 1:You know boring stamps, right, but Canada Post has like everything for the last two or three years. You can go back and buy old stuff and I go on to eBay where there are more people who are selling off old stamp collections and are selling sheets of stamps from the 50s and the 60s Small, you know, denomination stamps, but they're still valid and very often they are selling them at or below cost so I stock up on stamps that way. So when I send my envelope, so I use as many stamps as I can fit on the envelope and I try to theme them. If it's a customer who's a regular and I know what they're into, I try to put stamps on that I know will kind of connect with them. I put cute stickers on my envelopes, like I make the envelope a joy. I can't do that for US customers because I have to send things small packet for customs Small packet.
Speaker 1:So I can't, I can't, I can't do that, but and it's just another small way, and then people show the envelope when it arrives on their social media. I just got an order from so-and-so Look at the cool stamps, look at the, you know. So that gets me in front of more people and it's.
Speaker 2:It's not a quick and dirty process, it is very much a slow burn and, and it's very deliberate, and I would say, those small details, one matter, because they're a on-brand, they are so on on brand with not only what you sell but also you, melissa, as a creator and person, like to me, that's just like you talking about that. I'm like, of course she does. That's so, melissa, that is a hundred percent you. And the other thing is, the reason people are able to actually share that information is because you have been so clear about what it is you do and are that people can repeat that. And if you're wishy-washy I make stationery Nobody is going to remember that it's I'm the generic wedding photographer, right? You're Kraft Dinner. No, I'm Kraft Dinner with cut up gourmet hot dogs and sriracha. That's what I am, right, and so this is who I am. You have to be very specific about it so that people remember it and are able to share it. And those details need to be exactly what you said. It needs to be on brand, and I think that's the other thing being on brand.
Speaker 2:If it is hard for you to be consistently on brand, then it is not authentic to you and something needs to be realigned. And so if it's not easy for you to regularly say I do this, I love doing this. If it's a forced activity, it might not be for you Like, and so, yeah, does that make sense? It does make sense, like in terms of being niche and having so much fun and being able to do it. Like the joy on your face and I know, obviously this is a podcast, but I'm looking at Melissa's face right now the joy on your face when you're talking about that. I can feel it. And in fact, I can feel that when you are sharing about buying those stamps on your stories and when you share those posts, I feel that enthusiasm.
Speaker 2:And if that wasn't genuine, if it wasn't easy for you to do, then I would question whether it's authentic to your brand. And so this is I would say if you are having trouble or there's a pain point in what you are trying to put out there, then you might want to revisit that pain point. And if it is in fact something that you want to embody as part of your brand. Because if it's tricky for you and not tricky like complicated, but I mean tricky like it feels uncomfortable, it feels unnatural, it totally just all these fucking stamp just piss me off. If that's the way you feel about it. Maybe you shouldn't be going down that rabbit hole, yes, and, and leave it to somebody else, like.
Speaker 1:I think that's the thing is that like attracts like, and the reason you are connecting with people in the snip is that you are that person too yes, there has to be a level of authenticity to it and as far as the stamps go, I have been a stamp collector since I was six years old.
Speaker 2:My dad's a stamp collector.
Speaker 1:It's just something I've always loved to do, so it does come from a real. I've never stopped collecting stamps. Exactly, I have a history degree, I'm a graphic designer and stamps are perfect little.
Speaker 2:They are the perfect marriage degree.
Speaker 1:I'm a graphic designer and stamps are perfect little. They are the perfect designs that depict a country's history Like it's just marrying two of my favorite things. So it comes from a real place and, and you're absolutely right, you can't force that. Um, you can see a gap in the market, you can see a niche that you can dive down into, but the reality is, if you are not interested in it at the very least you need to be interested in it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if not a full-out enthusiast. Yes, if you're not interested in it, you are never going to come off as authentic. It's very obvious to people when your heart's not in it and you're also going to get bored. You're going to be like I don't want to do this anymore, like this is not because it's not filling your cup. Yep, it has to be a marriage of the two things. It has to be a marriage of something that you are, that you find at least interesting enough to talk about every day, cause you're going to have to talk about it every day.
Speaker 1:Yes, and if you're not interested enough in it to do that, then it's going to be a failure. Oh, eventually.
Speaker 2:Putting your creative work out into the world. Just that in and of itself is a triumph. People who make things. There's lots of people who make things and a lot more who don't put it out there. So if you are already making something and just putting it out there, you have triumphed full stop. But to then continue to put it out there and run a business and try and make profit, that is hard work. And if you don't have the motivation behind it and don't have the true like, this is part of my soul, this is part of my being, this is what I want to do. This is how I can be of service. It's going to come through and you're going to fall flat. You are going to fall flat.
Speaker 1:There is stuff that we all have to do. We have to do bookkeeping, we have to pay taxes, we have to deal with Facebook outages in the morning when you're trying to schedule a post All know all this nonsense that you have to deal with insurance and and paperwork and it's just. It's the amount of time you actually get to create and interact with your customers is not that big because all the other garbage you do. So you really have to the parts that you really enjoy. You have to really enjoy them to make up for all the parts that you are going to have to do that you don't enjoy, all the growing up parts.
Speaker 2:Yes, and honestly, to circle all the way back to the beginning, how do you go out and get yourself noticed and put yourself out there, whether it's online or offline? If you are not enthused by what you do, nobody else will. Yes, full stop.
Speaker 1:To me, the most attractive quality in another human being is passion. Yes, passion for what they do. Yes, passion for little things. I can watch people being passionate about something all day long. I might not be even remotely interested in what they are passionate about, but seeing them be passionate about it is exciting to watch. It's just like they come alive, they bloom right in front of you and it's so cool to see somebody do that.
Speaker 1:And you know, again, I am not as outgoing as Heather is, I'm the shy one out of the two of us. And yet you probably heard in my voice there where I got really excited about what I. You know, because it just comes out naturally Like it breaks down the shyness. And when you meet somebody else, say you're at a market and somebody comes up to your booth and they're kind of reluctant. Or, you know, because sometimes when you're really shy, being the customer is as awkward at being find yourself having like this crazy amazing conversation with this other human who you have never met before and probably wouldn't have guessed you have anything in common with.
Speaker 1:but beautiful things can come from that. So, yes, you need to put yourself out there first of all and foremost. As we said, you can build. It Doesn't mean they're going to come If they don't know it's there, then how can they come to it? It's not a field of dreams. So you need to do that, you need to go outside.
Speaker 2:Yes, leave your house.
Speaker 1:You can't do everything online. Do everything online, I mean, you can try, but you are going to cut off a whole chunk of potential opportunities by staying inside. You need to go down rabbit holes. You need to find things that you didn't know existed before. You need to find groups of people who do cool things that you may never have even considered could be a cool thing, and you need to get yourself in front of them. I saw a really good example online a couple of weeks ago a woman who made pickleball accessories. Okay, so pickleball is huge, right now, as we know, right it just the pandemic happened and pickleball just went boom.
Speaker 1:So she was like I don't know how to get my stuff in front of people. And so somebody in the group who is a tennis player chimed in and said here's what you're going to do. You're going to sit down and every day this week you're going to write a letter to a club a pickleball slash tennis club in your area, and you're going to send them a link to your website. And you're going to write a letter to a club a pickleball slash tennis club in your area, and you're going to send them a link to your website and you're going to tell them what it is you make and why you do it. And you're going to get in front of them. She's like this is how many clubs there are in the US for tennis and pickleball. And because she's a tennis player, she knew what the numbers were. She's like these are how many potential groups you have to get in front of. And she gave like this. You know like she just gave step-by-step instructions of how to approach them. And this woman was like I would never in a million years have thought of this. But see, once you know who you are, you know like all she needed was somebody to just say contact clubs. So this is what you need to do you need to get out there. Once you know who you are, you contact clubs. So this is what you need to do you need to get out there.
Speaker 1:Once you know who you are, you need to get out there and you need to find people who are into what it is that you do. You need to find out where they hang out. Do they have clubs? Do they have organizations? Do they have Facebook groups? Do they meet up? Is there a local group that meets up? You make pickleball accessories. You probably play pickleball right. Have you gone and played pickleball with these people? Get into their community and hang out with them. You know that's what you need to do, but if you don't know who your people are, you're going to have a very hard time getting in front of them, and that's why, when you go back to what Heather said at the beginning, you need to know what your brand story is and it takes a little while to figure that out.
Speaker 1:It's not going to come to you overnight unless you are a marketing superstar, but most of us are not. When we start, we're kind of going day by day figuring it out. So, yes, you got to get in front of those people. You have to show them what you have. You need to interact with them. You need to fuel those relationships that you have with people who have already found you. Do not neglect. There is a rule in marketing. Everyone knows it it costs you far more to reach a new customer than it does to reach an existing customer. So use your existing customers to find those new customers and figure out how to get your product in front of them. Maybe you send it to them, maybe you just reach out and tell them. Maybe you know you have to really sit down and brainstorm hard, but the first step is figuring out what you are not and then what you are.
Speaker 1:Yes, being able to write yourself a note, have it on your desk Like this is who I am. We used to do this with the Food Bloggers of Canada conference Every year. We would set a theme for the conference and we would sort of figure out what we are not. That was the first thing we would do. This is what we are not doing this year, and it made it so easy when we were having brand and sponsorship conversations, because if a brand came to us and said we want to do this, this and this, we'd be like that's on our what we are not list, like so it was just a hard note, we didn't even have to think about it.
Speaker 1:That is who we are not. But then we could go back to the brand and say this is who we are. This is what we can do.
Speaker 2:And it made things so much easier. Um, when you have that clear in your head, so yes, and in fact, the no. So I would say I'm gonna say two things. One, is somebody saying no, so going to a restaurant, hey, would you be interested in having my art? No, we don't do that. Um, you know, if this is the only art that's in here is actually my daughter's art the only art we have in this restaurant? Oh, okay, great. Do you know? This is the only art that's in here is actually my daughter's art, the only art we have in this restaurant? Oh, okay, great. Do you know of another local restaurant that does display art? So just because they said no doesn't mean the conversation is over. So you can use them to help group think. And I would also exactly what you said if you are having trouble, use both the online and offline community post to your Instagram. Hey guys, I'm looking for great craft fairs in my area. I'm looking for. Tell the world what are you looking for. Can you help me? They will happily. I mean, brian and I joke regularly.
Speaker 2:One of our least favorite things that people say, but it's also so meaningful, is that when you have a small business, people.
Speaker 2:Very regularly, the sentence starts with you know what you should do, and the reason they're saying that is because they want to support you and they want to help you, and so 90% of the time that you know what you should do is something you've probably already thought of and discounted because it doesn't work for your business, it doesn't apply, it's not on brand, it's on your no-no list, whatever that is. But there's going to be 10% that are nuggets of wisdom and so putting that out there, or posting to Facebook, posting to your LinkedIn, posting to your Instagram and soliciting feedback from your people. You're going to have to weed through a bunch of shit, but you're probably going to end up with some really helpful and, just as you said, people are always happy to say oh, I know of, I can connect you. So ask the question, like. The answer is always no unless you ask. The answer is always nothing if you don't put anything out there. So you have to put it out.
Speaker 1:There is literally a Facebook group for everything out there.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:So you know, and if you can't find one for the thing that you do, start one yes, I have done that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it works. Start one, and you know we were talking earlier about meeting up with other women or other business owners and using them to get in front of other people, but they're also a great sounding board. You know, like the pickleball example that was in a product masterclass Facebook group that I'm in for a program that we all took and the group is full of other people who are running product-based businesses. We're all in different niches, so sometimes you know what works for one won't work for another. But here was this person who was struggling and just put up her sand and said I do this, I can't figure out how to get in front of people, and she got great advice. So that's why those groups can be super helpful is just saying you know, I am trying to do this and I am not getting anywhere. And maybe you're not getting anywhere because it's an idea that has been tried many times and it's just not working for anyone. That may mean you need to pivot, that's okay, but at least now you know and you're not wasting time. But other times you're going to get advice you hadn't even considered from people who are either more experienced than you or who have tried things and they didn't work. But from trying those things they learned what did work. Yes, I am in a mastermind group that is fantastic for bouncing ideas off of. That is. What we do in that group almost exclusively is just be like this is my struggle this month and you get like some great ideas that you can use to your advantage.
Speaker 1:And it's also important in those situations to look for people who are in different industries from you or different niches, because very often when we get into our own niche we get blinders on and we just sort of see directly what's in front of us and what we know. And sometimes somebody in a different niche or industry can give you an idea that you hadn't thought of before and we were talking about this before we came on the show is that it may seem obvious to go check out a Facebook group and see if you can sell in there, but there's a lot of people who are not active on Facebook and so if you're a small business owner who isn't active on Facebook, that's outside of your peripheral vision, exactly. So you don't think to do that, and it's not until somebody says, hey, have you tried checking out a couple of really great Facebook groups in your niche and you're like oh, I'm not on Facebook, don't use that as an excuse. So I see small business, particularly creatives, doing this.
Speaker 1:They get thrown something that's a little out of their comfort zone or that is a little outside of their regular line of sight and they're like I don't go on Facebook, right? Okay, yeah, that's cool, but it's a viable opportunity for you Totally, and you're just dismissing it because you don't go on Facebook. And you have to be willing to when people give you advice. You have to be willing to put aside your objections and actually evaluate whether this is something that could work for you if you were willing to do.
Speaker 1:I'm not talking about to do things that are ethically murky or anything like that, but just something that you wouldn't have necessarily thought of. I was literally reading a thread the other day where a woman was very upset because she wasn't selling stickers. She had a sticker store on Etsy. Well, stickers on Etsy are like possibly the most saturated category on Etsy. I know because I'm one of them, right, yes, and she was just like I'm just going to have to close up shop because Etsy is not showing my stuff to anyone.
Speaker 2:I was like that's not Etsy's problem. Yes, that's a you problem.
Speaker 1:People started piling on the thread giving her tons of really great suggestions and advice and she just dismissed them all. No, I only work online. No, I'm not willing to go to markets. No, I don't want to have my own website. No, okay. Well then you know what you're right. Maybe you should just close up your etsy shop because, yeah, you're not willing to try any other viable option. And if that's you, then maybe your sticker shop is just a hobby. You make cute stickers for yourselves and for yourself and you share them with your friends and your family, and that's. That's fun. Because I think a lot of people open shops after they make fun things for themselves and for their friends. And somebody says you should open an Etsy shop and they're like I should, I'll make all this money and not realizing the hard work that actually goes into it or, in fact, researching whether other people are making the same, and that I would say categorically.
Speaker 2:Like I know, melissa and I both turned what would start it as a side hustle into a full-time hustle. But your side hustle doesn't need to be a full-time hustle and it doesn't need to be a hustle at all. If you enjoy making something, you make it, and if it doesn't turn into a business or you don't want it to turn into a business, that is a-okay. People should be free to make and create on their own terms, but if you want to make it a business, there are some things that you need to do in order to make it a business.
Speaker 1:Yes, we all should have a hobby that is 100% a hobby that is just for us. That is our way to de-stress, to be creative without limits or deadlines. And, yeah, that's important.
Speaker 2:I agree and I think that, yeah, that's a whole other kettle of fish.
Speaker 1:That's a whole other kettle of fish, especially if you want to make money that supports you. I mean, you can open an Etsy shop and have a few sales every month and you will make a little bit of money, but it's you know that's a big difference between making enough money to support you. If you want to do that, you really are going to have to put a lot of hard work into it and work hard to find your people. So I hope this episode was helpful. I hope we gave you enough examples to give you some ideas of ways that you can go out and find the people who actually buy your stuff. But I hope, most importantly, that we made it clear that people just aren't going to show up.
Speaker 1:You really do have to put the work in and to dive down those rabbit holes and put yourself out there and push yourself, which is hard. But every time I have pushed myself out of my comfort zone which basically happens every day like that's how shy. It may not sound like it on a podcast where Heather and I, who have known each other for years and are good friends, and we're talking, but for me, virtually every day, I am so shy that there is not a day goes by that I'm not putting myself out of my comfort zone, but you know what Good things always come out of it. Totally so, I think, when it comes to you know, just to wrap the episode up, when it comes to finding your people, there is two pieces to it. There is one, getting comfortable with putting yourself out there and working on that and practicing it and recognizing that you have to do it, and the other one is being strategic about where to look, where hang out, who to talk to, doing your research.
Speaker 1:Like they're two, one is a my almost a mindset thing yes um and the other is like being very analytical and evaluating things and being curious again. We keep coming back to that word, but curiosity is that's how you fall down the rabbit holes is being curious Anytime. You see somebody online who's excited about something that is related to what you do, it might be for another business. Check out the hashtags they use. That is a great way to follow it. Fall down a rabbit hole Once you've found some of those hashtags head over to YouTube.
Speaker 1:You found some of those hashtags head over to youtube um youtube has crazy intense communities of the most, yes, interesting things that you would never have thought of. Um, and and watch where they are. If somebody is big in that area on youtube, the people who are following them, all those people who comment on their posts, their videos, those are your people, because totally they've already shown you. So, yeah, yeah, you gotta, you gotta do work on both ends, you gotta do. Those are your people, because they've already shown you. So, yeah, you got to do work on both ends. You got to do work with your brain, your head, you know your mindset, and you got to do work with your research and logic and all that stuff, yes, yes, so I think that's probably it for this week.
Speaker 1:You have anything else you wanted to pop in there, you good?
Speaker 2:No, I don't think so, but if anybody, if we've missed anything, I would encourage everybody, because this is groupthink, right. This is how we all move ourselves forward, as if you guys have, if you're listening and you have a tried and true strategy, if you have something that worked really well for you, we would love to hear it, because that's stuff that we would like to share with the community.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. You can also head over to our Patreon account, which is at patreoncom slash and she looked up. You can join our community there for free. I haven't done much with it yet because we don't have a lot of people. You won't get access to the paid subscriber premium episodes every month, but I will drop public links for things that I think are interesting or that could help you with our business, and you can follow along there for free. I think there's an option for you to just I don't know what they call it, I think it's just follow this page or something like that Right.
Speaker 2:I think it's like a follow the page, yeah.
Speaker 1:Something like that. So if you're on Patreon and you want to do that, you'll be able to comment on those posts. I believe you just won't be able to see the premium content which, if you want to see that, you can subscribe and support the show and all the wonderful people who make this show happen every other week. That would be much appreciated. So that is it for this week, everyone. We'll be back in a couple of weeks with another brand new episode and we will talk to you all then. Toodaloo.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for joining us for the and she Looked Up Creative Hour. If you're looking for links or resources mentioned in this episode, you can find detailed show notes on our website at and she looked upcom. While you're there, be sure to sign up for our newsletter for more business tips, profiles of inspiring Canadian creative women and so much more. If you enjoyed this episode, please be sure to subscribe to the show via your podcast app of choice so you never miss an episode. We always love to hear from you, so we'd love it if you'd leave us a review through iTunes or Apple Podcasts. Drop us a note via our website at andshelookedupcom, or come say hi on Instagram at andshelookedup. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next week.
